31 replies to this topic

[Sacslider]

Quick 3 minute video. Take a look and let me know what you think...



Was leading both days and moving through SpecE30 traffic.

[Michael Colangelo]

My two cents: During the first race, the black E30 should have just let you by as there didn't appear to be any cars in his class nearby. In the second race, he was clearly chasing another E30 so expecting him to just slow down/go off line/etc. and let you by (and thereby giving up ground against the other E30) shouldn't be expected. You need to respect his racing battle, too, even if he might be the tail end charlie. He has just as much right to be there as you do. At around the 2:50 mark, he did give you room to pass.

I've been on both sides of this situation and learned the hard way (as in many positions lost) not to give up my ground to a faster out-of-class car when I'm battling it out with several cars in my class. When the time is right, I'll let the faster car by, but I won't give up a hard-fought position for it. Faster out-of-class drivers need to realize that.

Having said that, I tend to be a pretty cooperative driver.

[Bruce Wilson]

I've seen worse, WAY WORSE, and pretty much in every national race last year... Hoy boy nothing pisses me off more!!!

[Jim Boemler]

I see you've posted this in a NASA section, and I can't comment from the standpoint of NASA rules. From the standpoint of sportsmanship, it's always nice when another car gives you the point-by. But expecting it -- or trying to make the other guy look bad in public for not giving it to you -- seems like a poor display. It makes you look bad rather than him. Just because his competition is out of sight doesn't mean he's not competing, and he paid his entry fee just like you did. You should work your way past him, as you eventually did, and go about your race. In this instance, it never even cost you a position.

[Bruce Wilson]

Not sure I completely agree with Jim, but at least there were other cars in the guy's class. Two years ago at T-hill double national, a guy in a 350z raced me hard while 1st and 2nd were just several cars lengths ahead and thats the way the race ended. I later heard the guys father was in the tower egging him on! I talked to him before the race and he said he wouldn't get into our race. Some people just can't help themselves!!

-bw

[Ron Alan]

Clueless...no excuse IMO. My guess is he wasn't looking in his mirrors. I don't think the poster is trying to make anyone look bad or looks bad himself. I think before every race with NASA out of class racing is addressed...and every effort is made to encourage drivers to be cooperative. Again, I just think the E30 driver was late to realize the car was there, but gave room on the 2nd attempts.

[Bruce Wilson]

He blocked so I think it was on purpose. Yes, I've defended higher hp cars trying to maintain position but mostly because they tend to park it in the corners. In Craig's case it's highly likely the e30 could have benefited... defending certainly isn't doing anything for the e30 except slowing him down!

Oh and another thing about mixed classes, nobody really knows who's leading and who's lapping, there are too many classes to keep count. Just can't stop myself from extoling the benefits of racing with SCCA (regional)

-bw

[Michael Colangelo]

Bruce, just wait until you have to get through a gaggle of B-SPEC cars!

[Bruce Wilson]

Bruce, just wait until you have to get through a gaggle of B-SPEC cars!

Yeah, let's hope they do that well. This is the year that will define them...

[FTodaro]

Out of class racing is just a painful fact of life at times. For some, depending on the class they run, it might be the only fun that have that race. I would prefer they just run there line and I will find were to pass them. I don't appreciate blocking by an out of class guy anymore than an in class car and deal with them the same way by letting them know, after awhile, i am there and faster.

I try to return the professionalism, when I am caught by a faster class car, I run my line and don't block but let them decide when is the time to pass, me, I just want to run a consistent line. That is not to say I have never pointed a out of class car by, it just depends on the circumstances. If i am anywhere near contention of the next car, I am eyes forward and assume they will make good decisions.

I never expect a point by or a lift.

[dtfastbear]

For those who are not NorCal NASA regulars, the race directors cover out of class racing expectations at EVERY DRIVERS' MEETING. I was at this event and I know for a fact that Will went over this at the drivers' meeting on Saturday. If an out of class car catches you from behind and you are not actively engaged with another in-class car, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to help the out-of-class car by you quickly and efficiently.

That being said, I think the first example in the video is exactly what the race directors are trying to avoid. A back marker car should not be racing the out-of-class cars "playing through". In the second video, the E30's are all actively engaged in battle, so I'd have slightly different expectations of them. The E30 that moves off line to defend at T4 is actually hurting himself more by moving so far off line. Let's face it, he's towards the back of a huge E30 field, so he's probably not a hugely experienced racer. He's not going to make perfect race craft decisions.

Jim - your assessment of the situation is true - the other driver paid his fee, too. However, the race directors' orders for the event (and every single NorCal race event) are that out-of-class racing isn't permitted unless both drivers have agreed ahead of time that it's what they want to do. For instance, on grid for the Group C race at this very same event, I asked the drivers of two out of class cars if it was OK for me to race with them, since there were no other SU cars around my same lap time. Both said, "as long as I'm not actively racing against another car in MY class, let's go for it." Had they said no, I would have respected that and treated them differently on track.

Cheers,

Dean

[William Bonsell]

In the first instance, no problem. If you choose to race off line in a corner you may have to adjust your speed. He obviously slid out a bit. In the second instance, I seriously doubt he intentionally blocked you. I think he was so focused on the in class car ahead he didnt' know you were there and was moving right to try to out brake his opponent heading into 4...just my opinion. Congratulations on doing so well, but I'd tone back the use of the headlights. A bit too aggressive for me and I don't think it will win many friends in the paddock. It's just club racing after all!

And we know how Bruce feels about mixed class racing!

[Ron Alan]

In the first instance, no problem. If you choose to race off line in a corner you may have to adjust your speed. He obviously slid out a bit. In the second instance, I seriously doubt he intentionally blocked you. I think he was so focused on the in class car ahead he didnt' know you were there and was moving right to try to out brake his opponent heading into 4...just my opinion. Congratulations on doing so well, but I'd tone back the use of the headlights. A bit too aggressive for me and I don't think it will win many friends in the paddock. It's just club racing after all!

And we know how Bruce feels about mixed class racing!

This thinking just makes me shake my head. Even at the back of the pack, it is every drivers responsibility to be aware. Headlights are a common tool to try and catch the eye of a slower driver...done in every single SM race I've ever seen. Very similar to the corner workers waving a blue/yellow flag at you!!

[Bruce Wilson]

And we know how Bruce feels about mixed class racing!

Okay Bill, I've got some video that would even make you give me a day or so to compile and post.

[Qik Nip]

Craig:
Operating under the assumption that he was the last car in the field, IMHO the E30 was a bone head both days. If you are Tail End Charlie, you simply need to pay attentiomn to your mirrors and get the #@*! out of the way. The typical backmarker is watching (sometimes even too much) for overtaking traffic and they make way for the leaders. This guy neded to do so as well.
Rick

[William Bonsell]

This thinking just makes me shake my head. Even at the back of the pack, it is every drivers responsibility to be aware. Headlights are a common tool to try and catch the eye of a slower driver...done in every single SM race I've ever seen. Very similar to the corner workers waving a blue/yellow flag at you!!

Sorry Ron...but never have had someone blast me with headlights in a mixed car field. If I am fighting for a position I am still entitled to run my race. Faster cars still need to execute the pass. I think this is much to do about nothing in this instance. Sacslider had a decent lead and could have easily picked the guy off with a proper pass between 4 and 5. You guys are flaming pretty hard on this back maker IMO. Cut the guy some slack. I think I would have gone to the guys paddock and spoke gently with him before posting video and essentially "bone-heading" the guy. But, hey I'm not a pointy end racer.

Bruce...I'd gladly look at any video you have. I always enjoy seeing how the fast guys do it!

Bill-

[dtfastbear]

Everyone take a deep breath. No one is bone-heading the guy. Sac slider just started a discussion. We're all just club racers trying to learn and improve.

The fact is that on-track interactions between the E30's and SM's is causing lots of tension and bad feelings between these two groups. This is bi-directional. We are frustrated with them and I know they get frustrated with us. Let's just try to learn from this so we can level set our expectations and then clearly communicate this to the racers in both groups.

Dean

[Qik Nip]

Everyone take a deep breath. No one is bone-heading the guy. Sac slider just started a discussion. We're all just club racers trying to learn and improve.

The fact is that on-track interactions between the E30's and SM's is causing lots of tension and bad feelings between these two groups. This is bi-directional. We are frustrated with them and I know they get frustrated with us. Let's just try to learn from this so we can level set our expectations and then clearly communicate this to the racers in both groups.

Dean

Dean:
Since I used the bone head reference, I guess it's up to me to reply. This particular racer (he just happened to be a E30 pilot) needed to look in his mirrors. It has 0% to do with his specific race class. It has 100% to do with his situational awareness. I understand that you are speaking in the voice of the SM Director and I can appreciate that position. But this isn't an inter class issue. I would feel just as strongly if the E30 had been a backmarker SM.
Rick

[dtfastbear]

Oh, I actually missed that someone did "bone head" him... Yeah - I understand what you're saying. I think he didn't see Craig in T2, and you're right, there's no excuse for that. I am always inclined to give someone the benefit of the doubt (of course unless I, personally, am the one being slowed down) and I think that what happened in T3/3a, where Craig had to make the big lift and got squirrelly, wasn't an intentional pinch by the E30 driver.

In any event, from my perspective the thing we can learn here is that in the first instance, a tiny-tiny lift by the E30 between turns 2 and 3 would have been beneficial to both the E30 and the SM, as it would have slowed both the least. In the second instance, Craig shouldn't expect the E30 to give any special consideration to the miatas coming through, other than standard racing room rules, as the E30 pilot is embroiled in his own battle for position.

Cheers,

Dean

[Jim Boemler]

Headlights are a common tool to try and catch the eye of a slower driver...done in every single SM race I've ever seen. Very similar to the corner workers waving a blue/yellow flag at you!!

Not here. We were specifically told in SCCA school to NOT use headlights, and in the past ten years at SCCA events I have not seen even ONE car use them. Not once.