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Collision dispute, who is at fault?


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#41
Rob Burgoon

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Rob, within the SCCA had there been a protest by the other driver it's very likely the SOM fossils would have called IT, a racing incident. Ask me how I know.


Oh, I know it. Most recently our local SOM group told me that it's not possible for a pole car to jump a start. Fortunately, there are lots of ways to sort these things out.
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#42
john mueller

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Oh, I know it. Most recently our local SOM group told me that it's not possible for a pole car to jump a start. Fortunately, there are lots of ways to sort these things out.


Seriously? So why would the SoCal "mid-pack & back" drivers want to attend CalClub events if they had no chance event to get close? What a mess.
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#43
FTodaro

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I only know what I read about NASA. The main reason you don't have "these incidents anymore" is that NASA is not overseen by a bunch of fossils. Also I do understand you have different overtaking rules.

Rob, within the SCCA had there been a protest by the other driver it's very likely the SOM fossils would have called IT, a racing incident. Ask me how I know.

You have these incidents in NASA too. Drivers make mistakes and don't check mirrors no matter what the rules or who your racing with. You just have to be ready for it. When you assume your going to get racing room is when problems can happen.

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#44
Qik Nip

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Comments on David and Franks thoughts:
I agree that assuming that the other guy will leave you racing room is sometimes problematic and often bites us when we race out of Region/Division because we don't know the players. We have (for example) an ITA Mustang driver hereabouts that is absolutely infamous for ignoring his mirrors. We "locals" all know to pass him carefully. The incident that started this thread seems to be one driven by that lack of driver familiarity.
As for David's NASA vs. SCCA thoughts, yes, the two organizations are different and both are individually problematic. In NASA world if your front wheel is past the driver's door of the car being overtaken, he owes you a half a car width. In SCCA world, it's simply "racing room" that he owes you. Both judgements are somewhat subjective (unless you put a donught on his door).
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P.S. Admittedly having only seen the spun car's video, I blame the overtaking car for a lack of adequate situational awareness and the spun car for not looking in his mirrors to see trouble on the way.

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#45
Todd Green

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he owes you a half a car width.


There's also the issue that most people don't seem to read (or at least remember the rules) The NASA rule is:

In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.”

Though I've never understood why you'd write a rule for club racing that basically says it is fine to put someone two wheels into the dirt. That seems to just be asking for trouble.

P.S. Admittedly having only seen the spun car's video, I blame the overtaking car for a lack of adequate situational awareness and the spun car for not looking in his mirrors to see trouble on the way.


Watch the other vid. Here's where the overtaking car was before the contact occurred. No mirrors needed. I still can't grasp how the car being passed had no idea he was there.
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#46
Rob Burgoon

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I was working on cleaning off the tire donut last night. I was less than a tire diameter shy of dead even at the point of impact. Mark must have been ignoring his mirrors, pretending he didn't just have a terrible corner exit, AND wearing his blinders.
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#47
Charlie Hayes

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There's also the issue that most people don't seem to read (or at least remember the rules) The NASA rule is:

In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.”

Though I've never understood why you'd write a rule for club racing that basically says it is fine to put someone two wheels into the dirt. That seems to just be asking for trouble.


I was told by NASA officials that the rule was written in a way to make the overtaker make clean passes. Are you willing to drop a wheel to make that pass? If not then, don't go for it. Obviously defending drivers will then go to extreme blocking mode or rule bending.

I just pass when I can and never plan on filing a protest or having one filed on.
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#48
dstevens

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Watch the other vid. Here's where the overtaking car was before the contact occurred. No mirrors needed. I still can't grasp how the car being passed had no idea he was there.


He was close enough to ask if the guy had any Grey Poupon.... (that one was for the old guys....kids, ask your parents grand parents)
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#49
Johnny D

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Maybe get a train horn and use it when you're passing. :glare:
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#50
Tom Hampton

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He was close enough to ask if the guy had any Grey Poupon.... (that one was for the old guys....kids, ask your parents grand parents)


I may not be "old" by my standard....but, oddly I remember those...

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#51
Keith Novak

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This got me thinking about why I installed a little parabolic mirror. With a seat, helmet, HANS and harness, you can actually have a really big blind spot in a Miata, especially if you have a ribbon style net. When I point my LH mirror along my car so that I can see the the edge of the car and how close I am to a neighboring car in the mirror, the guy a few feet away on my rear quarter is invisible. I notice it every time sitting staggered in pregrid. If he's a few feet away, I can't see the guys car in my mirror but can turn my head and see his bumper.

You don't want to drive in your mirrors but there are some parts of the car where another car can hide in your mirrors unless you're careful. Without my parabolic I was pretty clueless as to who was on my left so I was very cautious. With it, I can see the whole left side of the track to see who's where When I'm close I can use the stock mirror to gauge just how close. It's also 2 reasons I intentionally try to pass fairly close to the other driver: 1) He's more likely to be able to see my in his mirrors. 2) If something happens, the closing speed is likely less so we'll rub but not slam into each other.
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#52
Johnny D

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This got me thinking about why I installed a little parabolic mirror. With a seat, helmet, HANS and harness, you can actually have a really big blind spot in a Miata, especially if you have a ribbon style net. When I point my LH mirror along my car so that I can see the the edge of the car and how close I am to a neighboring car in the mirror, the guy a few feet away on my rear quarter is invisible. I notice it every time sitting staggered in pregrid. If he's a few feet away, I can't see the guys car in my mirror but can turn my head and see his bumper.

You don't want to drive in your mirrors but there are some parts of the car where another car can hide in your mirrors unless you're careful. Without my parabolic I was pretty clueless as to who was on my left so I was very cautious. With it, I can see the whole left side of the track to see who's where When I'm close I can use the stock mirror to gauge just how close. It's also 2 reasons I intentionally try to pass fairly close to the other driver: 1) He's more likely to be able to see my in his mirrors. 2) If something happens, the closing speed is likely less so we'll rub but not slam into each other.

Yes he didn't see him on pre grid or at the start. Must of been left behind after the start, his car is so much faster, inconceivable, lol.
Oh $h!t where'd he come from.
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#53
Rob Burgoon

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It's also 2 reasons I intentionally try to pass fairly close to the other driver: 1) He's more likely to be able to see my in his mirrors. 2) If something happens, the closing speed is likely less so we'll rub but not slam into each other.


+1, people always try to pass too wide. It's good to be right up next to them.

Mirrors or no mirrors, you still gotta check if you're turning in and there's any chance of a car being there, even if it's turning in to the left before you turn in to the right. We're responsible for our blind spots under SCCA rules.
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#54
Keith Novak

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Sorry. I was just trying to be objective about what happened and how to avoid it happening again. This seems to have turned into a personal thing so I'll but out and leave it to the participants.
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#55
Rob Burgoon

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I was just trying to be objective about what happened and how to avoid it happening again.


Me too.
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#56
Elliott Skeer

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Maybe get a train horn and use it when you're passing. :glare:
J~

Ah that brings up one of my favorite quotes from SpecMiata.com
"Keep the horn, its fun to hit it when dive bombing the apex."
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#57
Stix37867

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Mirrors or no mirrors, you still gotta check if you're turning in and there's any chance of a car being there, even if it's turning in to the left before you turn in to the right. We're responsible for our blind spots under SCCA rules.

:thumbsup:
I have never had trouble with this once. How does someone not realize that a car is pulling along side of you? If you notice that the car the WAS in your rear view mirror disappeared, then I'd probably be checking your side mirrors just in case you didn't blow his doors off with all 122hp! I'm not saying everyone should be driving out of their mirrors, but a quick glance to see that there is a white miata and a black miata behind you doesn't seem too difficult. Call me crazy but I like to think out of the box :king:
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#58
dtfastbear

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There's also the issue that most people don't seem to read (or at least remember the rules) The NASA rule is:

In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.”

Though I've never understood why you'd write a rule for club racing that basically says it is fine to put someone two wheels into the dirt. That seems to just be asking for trouble.


And here's the rest of that rule that folks don't bother reading that says it is NOT ok to PUT someone two wheels in the dirt:


"The main purpose of the “¾ car width” rule is not to allow one driver to “squeeze” the other driver. The main purpose and intent is to alert the mind of the driver that is contemplating a pass that he/she may be “forced” to go two (2) wheels off-course to avoid a collision."

In other words, if you're making an aggressive pass attempt and there's contact and you didn't use all of the track plus a little more to avoid the contact, you're at fault. However, if the other driver INTENTIONALLY leaves you less than a car width of racing room, that driver is most likely going to be found at fault. At least that's how we run the show up North...

Cheers,

Dean

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#59
Alberto

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And here's the rest of that rule that folks don't bother reading that says it is NOT ok to PUT someone two wheels in the dirt:


"The main purpose of the “¾ car width” rule is not to allow one driver to “squeeze” the other driver. The main purpose and intent is to alert the mind of the driver that is contemplating a pass that he/she may be “forced” to go two (2) wheels off-course to avoid a collision."

In other words, if you're making an aggressive pass attempt and there's contact and you didn't use all of the track plus a little more to avoid the contact, you're at fault. However, if the other driver INTENTIONALLY leaves you less than a car width of racing room, that driver is most likely going to be found at fault. At least that's how we run the show up North...

Cheers,

Dean


Not sure I understand that...
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#60
Rob Burgoon

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Not sure I understand that...


It means close your eyes and turn in late and happen to miss your apex by 3/4 of a car width. :whistling:
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