22 replies to this topic

[Michael Colangelo]

Hey guys/gals,

I'm seriously considering getting back into SM racing. Prior to my now-wrecked (:cry:) CRX ITA car, I had a '91 SM w/original motor (so, it was mid-pack at best). It was a good mid-pack car, I never had a problem with it.

I'm considering the 1.8 cars. Being a heavier driver, the higher min weight of a 1.8 car works in my favor vs a lighter 1.6 car. I also like the fact that the Torsen LSD has proven to be more reliable than the MazdaComp LSD (although I realize that 1.6 cars can now get the Torsen).

How do the NA 1.8 motors compare to the 1.6 motors? Any ECU issues? Are they just as reliable?

Is there much of a difference between NA 1.6 and NA 1.8 SMs at the PNW tracks (Portland, PR, ORP, Ridge)?

Thanks!

[colin.koehler]

Really? Really Mike?

You literally did like 2 races in your CRX since you've owned it with absolutely NO development and when you roll it you have a spare ITA car that can easily be a front runner and drive away from Miatas and now you want to go back?

If your rollover has you thinking about going back to SM, I'd say the roll cage did not provide you sufficient protection.

That's it... I give up... you actually DO have race car ADD.

See you on track!

[Michael Colangelo]

Really? Really Mike?

You literally did like 2 races in your CRX since you've owned it with absolutely NO development and when you roll it you have a spare ITA car that can easily be a front runner and drive away from Miatas and now you want to go back?

If your rollover has you thinking about going back to SM, I'd say the roll cage did not provide you sufficient protection.

That's it... I give up... you actually DO have race car ADD.

See you on track!

Who let you in here?! Mods!!!!!

Seriously, I've had the CRX for 2 1/2 years, 7 or 8 race weekends, and a whole bunch of track days. And two autocrosses.

I have a buyer for the CRX and I'm thinking the Civic Si will make a good enduro car. Moreover, I see some well-developed and fast (pro-motor) SMs affordably up for sale in our neck of the woods and I'm thinking that these cars can be a good fit for me.

Once you've driven a well setup SM, everything else handles like a tractor, our CRXes included. As much as I love the Hondas and their excellent motors, I miss driving a car that's well-balanced and has brakes I can count on (unlike our Hondas!).

So, sorry Colin, I might be going back to the Dark Side. They have cookies.

I'll talk to you tomorrow!

[Randy Thieme]

If we were talking Oregon as the home region I would say 1.6L hands-down as there are plenty of top drivers with 1.6L cars who are also willing to help other drivers.

Minimum weight for the 1.6L cars is up to 2300 so it's not as difficult to meet weight for us mid-life guys. But, they've changed weights almost every year for the last few years so who knows what it will be in 2013.

I have the '99 Torsen in my '93. Relatively trouble and maintenance free but it is a little heavy. If money was no object I'd go with the Mazdacomp but the '99 Torsen makes a lot of sense for shoestring budgets. Easy conversion for the 1.6L cars. If the rear hubs are the least bit worn just go ahead and replace them at the same time - makes the conversion even easier since the axles must be replaced anyways.

[Keith Novak]

Mike,
Stay away from the NA 1.8. The lower rev limiter is obnoxious, especially at PIR. The 1.6 or 99 seem to have shift points much better suited for a few spots on that course. I've thought about building one myself for that reason. It was better before we had to change our R&P. The 99 is an option but talking with Bruce, he really didn't like the feel of it compared to the light nimble 1.6. They do have the cool headlights though.

[Michael Colangelo]

Mike,
Stay away from the NA 1.8. The lower rev limiter is obnoxious, especially at PIR. The 1.6 or 99 seem to have shift points much better suited for a few spots on that course. I've thought about building one myself for that reason. It was better before we had to change our R&P. The 99 is an option but talking with Bruce, he really didn't like the feel of it compared to the light nimble 1.6. They do have the cool headlights though.

How are the NA 1.8's shift points at the other tracks (Pacific, ORP, The Ridge)?

[Keith Novak]

Not bad at Pacific. I hit it once in a while between 3A and B but that's not a real issue. I know Ken hits the limiter in 5A but I don't have an issue there yet either. All I've driven at ORP so far is our enuro Nissan which has really tall gears and I'll be finding out about The Ridge here soon.

Anywhere you think of that your 1.6 would just start or almost start hitting the limiter before a braking zone, back that point up about 1-2 seconds in 3rd and a lot sooner in 4th.

[colin.koehler]

I have a buyer for the CRX and I'm thinking the Civic Si will make a good enduro car. Moreover, I see some well-developed and fast (pro-motor) SMs affordably up for sale in our neck of the woods and I'm thinking that these cars can be a good fit for me.

Once you've driven a well setup SM, everything else handles like a tractor, our CRXes included. As much as I love the Hondas and their excellent motors, I miss driving a car that's well-balanced and has brakes I can count on (unlike our Hondas!).

I will concede that the Miata is an excellent platform but what I'm saying is that you never drove a well sorted CRX, you didn't give it a chance.. You never upgraded your FD or LSD, ran decent brake pads, decent brake ducts, big tires, setup camber or played with springs or bars. My argument is you're jumping ship before ever really knowing how good the CRX is.

Fastest SM time at PR is 1:41.2 (Ken Sutherland I believe in qualy)
Fastest ITA time at PR is 1:40.5 (Rick D in a CRX, mine is a 1:40.722)

And let me be clear I'm not saying all this because you're considering a Miata (that's right, I have nothing against Miatas!), I'm only saying all this because you're leaving ITA and leaving an undeveloped platform that is a proven front runner (and affordably so!). You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

And I realize.... I'm making this argument on a Miata board which means I've already lost

Either way, good luck and regarldless, I'm glad...we're all glad, that you're not leaving racing or Conference!

[Kyle Keenan]

Not sure where you heard 41.2, Will Schrader put down a 39.9 during the race last weekend. Before that, was Jess I believe at a 40.something.

[colin.koehler]

I only had Conference data to look at. A 39.9 is quite a lap.

[William Bonsell]

Mike...I never did understand your jumping out of SM and into the Honda. They're both good race cars, but it just seems that racing is easier in a Miata. VERY reliable...uncomplicated mechanicals and with the new 2300 lb weight for the 1.6's, it's a no brainer to me. I weigh 250+ and I scaled at 2338 at PR earlier this month....

Jay Sweetman has a great car for sale and Stephen Hui's is also available...both are top notch. My POS has did a 42.2 at PR last year (not me driving) and dyno'd at 118.8 at Loynings last October.

Also at least 4 SM's turned 1:40 last week at Pacific with Schrader, indeed, turning a 39! WOW...on Hoosiers, but that's flying.

And you know you will always have a bunch of Miatas in grid....

Bill-

[Jordan Wand]

For the record, Will ran a 1:39.3 at PR in qualifying last weekend while scrubbing in my Hoosiers. What a nice guy! ;-P

[Michael Colangelo]

For the record, Will ran a 1:39.3 at PR in qualifying last weekend while scrubbing in my Hoosiers. What a nice guy! ;-P

I saw the Sunday SM race at PR last weekend. Incredible race! Ken, Will, and Thomas looked like they were glued bumper-to-bumper going from T9 to T2.

[Keith Novak]

I hope they weren't bump drafting. That would be illegal.

[William Bonsell]

Back to the original thread question, I'm not sure why most of the SM racers, both SCCA and Conference, run 1.6's here in the Northwest. Up to this year, it pretty much looked like '99's ruled the world everywhere else. With the changes for 2012 regarding weights and rp's, there appears more parity than ever. With the falling prices of donor cars, I think if I were to build a car from scratch it would probably be a 99, though I am not sure why. Maybe it's the headlights.

But, with several really nice 1.6's for sale right now, I would take that route Mike. It's always cheaper to buy existing than to build new. Just ask my son. Oh, and we installed 99 torsens on both our cars last year, and it certainly was worth it. Think we paid about 1200 each. I think there is a 4.1 torsen for sale on craigslist for $300 but you'd have to swap out the gears.

Bill-

[Kyle Keenan]

Mike,

This doner is looking very promising, currently on sale for $100. All legal, minus the spoiler, but oh well.

[Michael Colangelo]

Kyle,

I like it, but I might get protested for the ride height! Plus, whoever heard of a red Miata? Ha!

[Kyle Keenan]

I bet Ken had one. Probably why he's so fast.

[colin.koehler]

For the record, Will ran a 1:39.3 at PR in qualifying last weekend while scrubbing in my Hoosiers. What a nice guy! ;-P

This supports my own data.

After making my own conversion from Toyo's to R6's last year (and to Kook C51's, my fav) I thought to myself... If the SM guys start running the Purple Crack they're going to be another 1-2 seconds faster. Then I had some SM folks tell me that the RA1's were faster than the SM6's (R6)!!! I was in utter disbelief. No way is a toyo faster than an R6... If so, I thought, they must be doing it wrong. I did back to back testing at PIR and PR with Toyos and R6's and the R6's were consistently between 1 to 2 seconds faster per lap. The R6 (and C51) helped the CRX Everywhere... even in T8 at Pacific.

Also, the SM's ran 205 Toyos right? I found that the treadwidth of the 205 hoosier is the same as a 225 Toyo. So not only are the SMs on grippier tires, they are also on wider tires. Combine that with a lower weight in the 1.6's of 2300lbs and I'm not surprised in the least that the guys with the pro motors (and developed cars and talent) are doing 39's.

In my testing I also found that the first and second heat cycles of the Purple Crack (yes, "scrubbing them in") they are at their absolute peak. My R6's took a dump after 12 heat cycles (about 1 second slower). I wonder how they'll fair on the SM's.

Now I'm going to be paying closer attention to the SM's this year regarding tire data and lap times.

[Roadsterx]

Mike,
I spoke with Sean at Miata Cage at length about this last week. He still feels the 1.6 would be the car to have in the Northwest. I was getting y 95' ready for SM/ITA this year. I still need to go through the Novice races so I will probably finish it up and run ITA . I can always use it as an enduro car and wait until I get my license to see what I will do next season. I was doing the same thing you were thinking about how many cars came up for sale this year and buying instead of building. I did text Stephen Hui last week and that car had been sold.

Mike