183 replies to this topic

[Caveman-kwebb99]

So does nascar... jeperdy are you racing either of those series. They both limit tires on a per race basis... Are you willing to buy say 3 new sets of tires for every event? I have personaly won on 17cycle hooisers and lost on 2 cycle hoosers at the saMe track. I personally dont see what your tire limit achieves. It is just like my beleife in the tooth fairy... both are just false hopes.

If you just pissed off at scca spend your moneyh with nasa. sooner or later nasa will piss you off to. I get pissed at both myself but I am not willing to be involved in leadership with either so dont do me alot of good to bi tch about either one.

both groups have good and bad, for everyone who want to defect from scca to nasa I can assure you there is equal ammount that want to do just the opposite. Thats why baskin robbins gots 33 flavors!

[CruzanTom]

Based on the responses to my post, it came off as a kvetch against the fact that traveling to race is expensive. I knew that coming in, but that wasn't the point of the post.

To say you are not bitching about expense is being disingenuous. Your blog listed 6 reasons for leaving SCCA, and most dealt with your expense:


1. Traveling is "expensive"
2. Traveling takes time, time = money
3. 5/13 MARRS events were too far away for your "budget"
4. Switch to Hoosiers is a "massive uptick in tire costs"
5. No onramp between PDX and club racing
6. Safety concerns with SCCA (apparently stemming from an accident you had in April).

You have 8 MARRS races close to you and the MARRS rules only permit you to use points from 9 races (MARRS Rules 6. A). Therefore, even if you were a front-of-the-pack racer, you would only have to travel to one race to accumulate maximum points. Second, the MARRS program has always had races away from Summit. "

Today, the MARRS series has between seven and nine events each year. Most are held at Summit Point Motorsports Park, but two or three events are held at other tracks to add some variety and challenge to the Championship" (WDCR MARRS home page,

http://bit.ly/NwNaQz ).

Participate in your "local" races and have a good time but don't begrudge those who want to experience other tracks.

As for your safety concerns, they appear to arise from your accident in April that scared the be-jesus out of you. I have read your blog posts about the accident. I think you would be better served by focusing on "responsibility" for the accident rather than "blame." All drivers share responsibility, even if one driver is to blame for an accident. But that is the subject for another topic.

[jeopardyracing]

To say you are not bitching about expense is being disingenuous. Your blog listed 6 reasons for leaving SCCA, and most dealt with your expense:


1. Traveling is "expensive"
2. Traveling takes time, time = money
3. 5/13 MARRS events were too far away for your "budget"
4. Switch to Hoosiers is a "massive uptick in tire costs"
5. No onramp between PDX and club racing
6. Safety concerns with SCCA (apparently stemming from an accident you had in April).

You have 8 MARRS races close to you and the MARRS rules only permit you to use points from 9 races (MARRS Rules 6. A). Therefore, even if you were a front-of-the-pack racer, you would only have to travel to one race to accumulate maximum points. Second, the MARRS program has always had races away from Summit. "

Today, the MARRS series has between seven and nine events each year. Most are held at Summit Point Motorsports Park, but two or three events are held at other tracks to add some variety and challenge to the Championship" (WDCR MARRS home page,

http://bit.ly/NwNaQz ).

Participate in your "local" races and have a good time but don't begrudge those who want to experience other tracks.

As for your safety concerns, they appear to arise from your accident in April that scared the be-jesus out of you. I have read your blog posts about the accident. I think you would be better served by focusing on "responsibility" for the accident rather than "blame." All drivers share responsibility, even if one driver is to blame for an accident. But that is the subject for another topic.

I never said I wasn't bitching about expenses - I clarified that I was bitching about how much * more * expensive MARRS became this year.

My safety concerns are way beyond my own wreck and I am hardly alone in this region on this one! And it's not just safety is the expense of contact and the lost racing.

[Glenn]

OSB........Just sayin......

[Caveman-kwebb99]

we have a very very very good local regional racer here in ohio! I will not mention his name...

He has been wrecked in major ways this year at both NASA and SCCA races, niether is safer than the other. there is inherant risk in all racing. with nasa if a guy wrecks you he may get a suspension for a couple races or a probation for a few races. neither keeps him from hitting you again the next time on track, and never do you recieve any compensation from the at fualt competitor. If contact is your bigg concern then I would say NASA TTE isw a great class for you. they have driver meting after every session, and there is almost never any car to car contact.

[jeopardyracing]

OSB........Just sayin......

OK well we can consider this debate closed I think.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

OSB........Just sayin......

missed spelling? SOB

[Glenn]

missed spelling? SOB

Other Sports Beccon........

[Glenn]

OK well we can consider this debate closed I think.

Not really....you can still take your ideas to the Region and present them........Dude you need to get thicker skin if your going to start off your newbie post "Why SCCA Club Racing Is Losing Guys Like Me".

[jeopardyracing]

Other Sports Beccon........

Screw that. I'm not quitting just because I don't like the direction my region is going. I'm just airing out the reasons why I'm going to do at least as much NASA as SCCA and probably more, and pointing out how this season's changes are perceived by the grass roots guys.

I'm also not going to quit because of the gruff, dismissive, machismo attitude I've encountered here on this thread. It's going to make it a lot more fun to move up the field. But I am totally baffled by it at the same time.

[Glenn]

But I am totally baffled by it at the same time.

So JD gets BIG hit counts when things are slow

[jeopardyracing]

Not really....you can still take your ideas to the Region and present them........Dude you need to get thicker skin if your going to start off your newbie post "Why SCCA Club Racing Is Losing Guys Like Me".

Seriously? A thicker skin? The responses to this post ranged from 1-2 constructive thoughts to 1) you're new, slow and a whiner and 2) find another sport.

Who wants to continue that debate? I'm saying the debate is closed because those posting it are just having fun piling on ridicule of the post, while those who support it are only PMing me in the background and mentioning that I am hardly alone. So what's the point? I get it. You guys think the post was whining because I can't afford to travel for the MARRS rounds and buy new tires often enough and / or that buying new Hoosiers doesn't move you up the field (HA!). My position is clear, yours is clear. Time to drop it.

[N Bruni]

Rich you cant bash are series on this forum and not expect to get the response you are getting. SCCA or Nasa both have their pros and cons neither one has more than the other IMO.

As for the tires, to say you cant be compeititve if you dont buy a new set every weekend would be a false statement. I personally have continually been in the top 10 all season long and even the top 5 at times on the oldest most worn out hoosiers you can imagine.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

just because you have some people pm ing you and supporting you dont make your feelings any more correct than the rest of us willing to post in the open. Every argument has an equal and opposite argument that has just as much merrit. I hope you dont quit racing scca, but if you do it will only take some time before you find something wront at nasa. it is just the way the world works, luckily my moms and dads taught me early the world isnt fair.

[James York]

Formula 1 does this now. It's not that hard to administer. The grid workers check now for tech stickers as cars go on track. Create a tire stamp process they look for at the same time and limit stamps. Allocate enough tires per season to account for the occasional flat spot, which is not necessarily fatal to the tire. Same as F1.

The fact that other forum posts exist on this topic doesn't mean the topic is foolish, it indicates others share these concerns. It's reductionist to dismiss those as new guys who come in and want to re write the rules to their own ends. These are challenges other sports have also encountered and faced. Raising them doesn't mean that the poster is just another poorly funded new guy who is whining because he can't win.

It is abundantly evident that I erred in posting this blog entry here - I should have found my region's forum or better, not posted it all. Interestingly most of these posts are from outside the region where folks don't have the full context. The multiple PMs I have gotten from inside the region have been highly supportive.

We are not F1 dude, which has hundreds (if not 1,000s) of paid workers at an event. SCCA is a volunteer club. SM at a national level is based on national rules (you can supplement as you wish for a regional race, but nationals all run under the same ruleset; posting here is the wrong audience in my opinion) F1 is a fixed series of races with a fixed tire qauntity per event. SM is you can race what race you chose, where you chose, when you chose. You never answered any of my question on how you were going to distribute tires. (How many tires, how do you manage test days, and different people running a different number of races; let's hear it).

Your last paragraph sums it up correctly. Crying here about some local regional series isn't going to get you anyplace. Sounds like you should have taken Glenn's advice about posting here.

Oh, and by the way, NASA doesn't have some sort of tire use policy other than its a different tire. And before you reply it doesn't matter because it an RA-1, sure it does. If I can qual and race each day on a new set of 1/32s versus someone who is budgetting tires for maybe 3 or 4 weekends and starting with 4/32s........ There are at a disadvantage. Not huge, I agree, but I don't think much different then your beef about the Hoosiers.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Also i feel i should also point out "the who you seem to be arguing with here" Glenn is normally one of the most honest no nonsense guys on here. Some of us are just down right lunatic fringe but he is never one. That should be your first clue that you may not be making your case... He could be concidered a good litmus test for most things SM IMHO.....

[Mike Collins]

Some points that have yet to be mentioned:

• The WDCR (Washington DC Region) and MARRS are NOT synonimous
• There are the EXACT same number of home (Summit) races this year as last
• MARRS went to the SAME away tracks this year as last.

There are LOTS of guys who only race at Summit. The Club Racing Committee (CRC - Read our by-laws) looked at hosting a WDCR Championship only and we felt it would detract from the value of a traveling schedule. Folks who want to race SCCA in the Washington DC area still have the same number of races. The MARRS (Mid-Atlantic Road Racing Series) decided to acually become more of a Mid-Atlantic series and followed some of the lead from the folks in the south with the success of the SARRC series.

Racing and Racing for a Championship are entirely two different animals. You are NEVER going to stop the spending or the development. If you like SCCA great, If you like NASA great. But your focus is a little scewed.

Thank you for your input...

[G.Obadia]

I did not find Richs blog to to be inflammatory. I think some of his points have merit and were layed out in a way that gave the opinion of the average racer. For some of you who having a differing opinion, maybe educating Rich, rather than flaming him (Glenn I like you but you really need to relax) would serve Rich and the community better.

As a MARRS competitor this years schedule is much higher in cost than the past 4. I do like traveling to other tracks (not Nelson's) and find it a greater challenge to be a champions of the series. I do though feel sympathy for those who cannot follow the new path the series has taken in these economic times. Whether real or perceived, the perception or reality, for some is that times are tough. Maybe in real or perceived boom times, this change would not have elicited Richs blog opinion or mine.

As for safety. I would make the schools tougher to pass. Some people should not be out there. Some tracks need to be shut down and brought into the modern age of increased safety. We don't wear leather helmets anymore and should expect the tracks to modernize the same way. And if they do not or cannot we (the SCCA or NASA) should not sanction races there.

[Glenn]

(Glenn I like you but you really need to relax) would serve Rich and the community better.

Meds engauged.....I REALLY tried to warn him, and It was NEVER my intent to flame the guy, but if your going to make suggestions like "limiting tires like we do in sailing" you need to balance that against all of the possible issues before hand. Can you flat spot and cord a sail .

As far as safety and crashing goes, Greg O how many "wrecks" have you been in? My point, in a LOT of cases the wreckee is the primary contributing factor, thus the OSB statement. There are a LOT of WRDC folks that applys to! And thus the reason I do NOT race at SP! I TRAVEL to far away tracks, LOL.

As you were.........

[Rob Burgoon]

Good luck with the jump to NASA...and I say the same to all those jumping to SCCA. No organization is going to please all of it's members. Did you not look at the schedule when you started racing in your region? If someone told you that grassroots racing meant cheap...they were pulling your leg. And sorry, but I don't think you know what the cost of making a RA1 "competitive" is. You make good points about licensed drivers, lack of experience, and penalties for contact...but your thoughts should be sent to your local regional board for consideration to have any effect. An anonymous blog or forum rant gets you no credibility or sympathy from me.

Edit...of course you are looking for sympathy, why else waste your time? Just move to NASA and be done with it...your blog title tells all. Different strokes for different folks. Pretty simple concept.

Jepoardy calls THAT harsh? That was downright cordial.