46 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

For those who didn't attend this last weekend at TH, the region had an open discussion and feedback session on the direction for tires next year. Mike Smith and Brian G led the discussion. I will try and re-cap what was said and ideas that were thrown out.

First and foremost, the region is still very concerned with costs and trying to keep at least the tire portion of racing in check(spec miata in this case). We did not follow the National direction in SFR and switch to Hoosiers for 2012 for several reasons but one of which was NASA stayed on RA1's. But at this time it appears NASA is sticking with Toyo but switching to the new RR molded 4/32 tire for 2013.

Little is known about this tire. I hope someone will correct me if my memory is faulty(no jokes ), but the feedback went something like this. A majority are still happy with the RA1 and happy to stick with it. Many are curious about the new Toyo and eager to hear more info on performance, life expectancy and price point. A few were adamant about getting away from a street tire that needs to be shaved and cycled many times before becoming competitive(I fall in this corral). The Hoosiers don't seem to be an option again(as a SFR regional tire) based on info gathered this year locally and across the country. If a change is made, the 2 tire option(RA1's or RR's) was thrown out as a possibility during a transition

I hope those who read this and weren't in attendance will voice their opinions so Brian can gather as much feedback as possible. No bitching come next April if you stay quiet!

Also anyone out there who would like to share info on the new Toyo RR please do so! Design, structure, compound and rating, availability, cost??????

[Todd Tagget]

Ron, only input I have is that Phils Tire Service has them for $164 which is I believe what he sells RA-1s for

[alangj]

Of course, one down-side to the switch, that was mentioned, is that there is no "rain tire" version of the RR's, so we will still need a set of unshaved RA's if it rains, obligating us to have two sets of different tires (3 if you run Hoosiers or Hankooks in other classes). Unlike now, where we can ultimately shave our rains for use later in the season. However, if it is true (as Ron C told me sometime ago) that the RR's reportedly grip as good as the Hankook C51's, then we may not need different tires for Group 5, which would be a huge relief on those race weekends when the two groups are separated by just one session from each other - time now spent frantically trying to get out of impound from the first group, then getting tires changed, fueled, etc, etc!
Al

[Jamz14]

I saw a RR1 on Toyos site listed as a rain tire

[Alberto]

As someone who is budget conscious and hasn't had the time to get enough seat time to advance too much further than "back of the pack" on a bad day or "rear 50%" on a good day (2:14s at Thill are my best time to date), I have a few things that I look for in a tire for race use:

1. Nice long life cycle. The Toyo RA1 is fantastic in that respect and helps me control my budget. I'm still racing on a set of RA1s that started out at 6/32nds wet tires from last season (Jan 2011). Yes they are harder than the 3/32nds I bought in Nov 2011 but do OK for me for practice and the occasional race. I run my second set of tires that started at 3/32nd tires for quali and race.

2. They should be communicative enough so that drivers of all skill sets through the large SM pack can race safely on them. SM is still the class that attracts the most amount of new drivers. The level of experience and skill varies greatly. I suspect there would be more negative$ to a tire that communicates less.

3. I really don't understand the perceived negative of shaving. It sounds like a benefit in my book. If I want a killer set of tires to make a charge for the front, I can shave them to 1/32nds (assuming I have the skill). If I want a set of tires to last me through multiple race weekends, I can start them at 4/32nds. The added cost of shaving is negligible.

I never had an issue with needing multiple heat cycles on the Toyos. Most people I see pick them up at AIM, mount them up and race. Then again, I've only gone through 2 sets in 1 1/2 seasons...

[Todd Tagget]

I saw a RR1 on Toyos site listed as a rain tire

Can you provide a link ? I can't find them on their site.
Alberto.. I disagree about the shaving. If no shaving is allowed this opens up the purchase from people like tire rack and les schwab, that can save $15-30 a tire when you factor in the shaving and cost of tire..

[Jamz14]

^{Here you go Todd.}

http://www.toyojapan...rn/pxrr1_01.jpg

[CARacer]

Can you provide a link ? I can't find them on their site.
Alberto.. I disagree about the shaving. If no shaving is allowed this opens up the purchase from people like tire rack and les schwab, that can save $15-30 a tire when you factor in the shaving and cost of tire..

Shaving will be allowed, it's just assumed that since the tire is starting at 4/32 there will be no benefit from shaving. If people do find a benefit to shaving this tire, it will be done, though maybe not by everyone.

[Todd Tagget]

Well that's an issue they aren't DOT rated (for those of us who drive to the track once in a while ;-)
Thanks Jamz...

[Alberto]

Shaving will be allowed, it's just assumed that since the tire is starting at 4/32 there will be no benefit from shaving. If people do find a benefit to shaving this tire, it will be done, though maybe not by everyone.

Very true. Especially if you look back at the discussion about Hoosiers where people shaved those race depth slicks to try and get a benefit.

I support AIM with regards to tire purchase. I like that Ron is a local business and he supports the local race community. His prices are competitive to all others and he offers excellent customer service.

[CARacer]

My summary of the meeting: Almost everyone seemed to agree mandating a tire which is currently completely unknown would be unwise. ITA, where tires are open, will gather data on the RR and we can re-evaluate for SM for 2014. Seemed pretty sensible and simple to me. I also think I heard that the RR is still street legal, though I'm not 100% sure. As for the Hoosier, just like at last year's meeting, only one person offered any argument in its favor, and they were a guest from another region. Another guest from the same region warned against the Hoosier.

[Inferno]

I run group 7 & 5, I'm for "Hoosiers" and what ever for rains. Hoosiers are good for about ten cycles, and good right out of the box(no heat cycling to get competitive like a RA1's) RA1's are good for about eight to ten competitive cycles after the throw away cycles, so where is the savings??

[Ron Alan]

I guess I missed the lets "re-evaluated" for 2014. Maybe Brian can chime in here?

Not ripping on you Alberto but since you made the statement about "nice long life cycle" I need to point out that at slower lap times ANY tire is going to last a long time. I'm as budget minded as you if not more so...but at the front our tire budget is 5 times yours. We did the test day on Thursday(5-20 min sessions), missed practice on Friday, did both quals(7 and 6 laps I believe) and both 30 minute races...9 sessions. Started on 3/32nd and the tires are done...corded one. I actually thought this was pretty good considering 6 of those sessions it was over 90 degrees and god knows how hot on the track surface.

When RA1's make enough noise that you can hear them, my guess is most felt it in there ass long before and are already making the necessary adjustments.

Ironically, you are actually making the argument why the RA1 really isn't a cheap tire at the front. Your quote..." If I want a killer set of tires to make a charge for the front, I can shave them to 1/32nd"

So now you have a $800 dollar set of tires that last 2 heat cycles...and after that they make good tire barriers. The Hoosier is best in its first 3 cycles(winner category)but begins falling off. At least the guy who wants to try and win can take those 3 cycle Hoosiers and sell them($200-$400) to someone who isn't in a position to win but will win his own race in the mid-pack and love them for the rest of the season. I see a tire like this as way more cost effective when you look at the big picture.

The RR is an unknown...but if it is good out of the box like the Hoosier, and still good at the end of its usable tread(like the RA1)maybe we could get the best of both worlds??? Ok I'm dreaming But at this point in SFR, the guys in the back half of the pack aren't getting the benefit of good cheap RA1 take offs and the guys at the front are paying a fortune to get to a competitive race winning tire!

[Alberto]

I guess I missed the lets "re-evaluated" for 2014. Maybe Brian can chime in here?

Not ripping on you Alberto but since you made the statement about "nice long life cycle" I need to point out that at slower lap times ANY tire is going to last a long time. I'm as budget minded as you if not more so...but at the front our tire budget is 5 times yours. We did the test day on Thursday(5-20 min sessions), missed practice on Friday, did both quals(7 and 6 laps I believe) and both 30 minute races...9 sessions. Started on 3/32nd and the tires are done...corded one. I actually thought this was pretty good considering 6 of those sessions it was over 90 degrees and god knows how hot on the track surface.

Good data point thanks for sharing. I don't take your comments as ripping. I look at it as sharing different perspectives and learning from them. Things are different comparing the front and back of the pack as we just illustrated.

When RA1's make enough noise that you can hear them, my guess is most felt it in there ass long before and are already making the necessary adjustments.

I actually never heard my tires squeal - except on video replay a few times. I go by feel but, yeah, you are correct.

Ironically, you are actually making the argument why the RA1 really isn't a cheap tire at the front. Your quote..." If I want a killer set of tires to make a charge for the front, I can shave them to 1/32nd"

So now you have a $800 dollar set of tires that last 2 heat cycles...and after that they make good tire barriers. The Hoosier is best in its first 3 cycles(winner category)but begins falling off. At least the guy who wants to try and win can take those 3 cycle Hoosiers and sell them($200-$400) to someone who isn't in a position to win but will win his own race in the mid-pack and love them for the rest of the season. I see a tire like this as way more cost effective when you look at the big picture.

I'm actually not trying to make the case for the RA1 or any other tire for that matter. I don't think that is not the point of this thread. But since you mentioned it brings back memories of kart racing and our tire rotation scheme and how many slicks we went through back in the day. Everything I read and people that I speak with that run Hoosiers makes me believe those experiences will be repeated. Relying on purchasing someone's takeoffs isn't always a viable strategy.

I'd love to see results of actual testing.

The RR is an unknown...but if it is good out of the box like the Hoosier, and still good at the end of its usable tread(like the RA1)maybe we could get the best of both worlds??? Ok I'm dreaming But at this point in SFR, the guys in the back half of the pack aren't getting the benefit of good cheap RA1 take offs and the guys at the front are paying a fortune to get to a competitive race winning tire!

I like your dream
I don't understand your repeated comments about takeoffs though. Yeah, I'm slower than the top runners and my tires last longer as a result. Yes, takeoffs would be cheaper at initial buy-in but may be worn further from heat cycling than the tires from my more gentle heat cycles. Cost of mounting is still present as well. I'm sure there's a break even point somewhere.

Feel free to share more on takeoffs if you want.

[Ron Alan]

I like your dream
I don't understand your repeated comments about takeoffs though. Yeah, I'm slower than the top runners and my tires last longer as a result. Yes, takeoffs would be cheaper at initial buy-in but may be worn further from heat cycling than the tires from my more gentle heat cycles. Cost of mounting is still present as well. I'm sure there's a break even point somewhere.

Feel free to share more on takeoffs if you want.

My point about takeoffs is the ability for a newbie or a backpacker(who is completely happy being right were he/she is)to find perfectly good usable tires at a cheap price. This allows someone who can't live with a 1 second drop off in the tire to recoup a little of their investment and a budget racer to keep his costs down and get lots of cheap laps in. When a fast guy is done with a RA1...it is done! When the same guy is done with a Hoosier...those tires will give someone days and days of great track time.

I sold my HPDE car to a guy with 5 heat cycle Hoosiers on it(that I had bought for the bargain price of $20 a piece). He did 10 weekends on those tires before they corded and ran his fastest times on that last day!

We got lucky when we started and I was able to pick up 4 sets of used RA1's(2 full tread rains)that were all 5 years old. For under $600 we ran for almost 2 years on those 4 sets(6 months in HPDE)

I was very much on the side of running R compound tires when the discussion came up last year...we are racing correct? But completely understand the regions cost to race concerns. But a DOT moulded tire sounds like a step in the right direction to get the best of both worlds...time will tell.

[NV Racer]

The RR1 appears to be the rain tire version of the RS1 full racing slick. I found a post on Facebook that states that in August they would come out with a DOT version of the RR1. With NASA switching to the RR1 will Toyo continue to produce the RA1? Last year’s argument to staying with the RA1 was crossover from NASA that argument goes away with NASA's switch. I have enough tires to finish off the season barring any unforeseen mishaps or flat spotting I will be buying new tires either way next season. The front runners have the most to lose with a tire change, as they are usually the most vocal opponent to change. The bottom line is everyone has to run the same tire. I prefer a non shaved tire Hoosier or the new RR1. The Hoosier is the National tire and puts us in line with the rest of the west coast. RR1 will put us in line with Nasa. RA1 we will become an island. Again bottom line is everyone will be running the same tire regardless the decision.
Dennis

[NV Racer]

Update:
http://toyotires.med...p?s=43&item=239

The RR DOT tire has 2 grooves similar to the Hoosier and Hankook. Now throw rain tire options into the mix.

Dennis

[DionJ]

John Mueller's report on the RR1 is encouraging. I don't want to repeat the 888 nightmare, but am really tired of the RA1. It makes more sense for SFR drivers to be on the same tire as NASA since few of us do nationals, and AIM Tire profits more with TOYO, so, I vote RR1 followed by Hoosier...

[Ron Alan]

John Mueller's report on the RR1 is encouraging. I don't want to repeat the 888 nightmare, but am really tired of the RA1. It makes more sense for SFR drivers to be on the same tire as NASA since few of us do nationals, and AIM Tire profits more with TOYO, so, I vote RR1 followed by Hoosier...

+100
Kyle and I 2nd this! And if they are as fast as the Hoosiers or Hankooks, the guys who double dip(for track time) will be in heaven!

[DionJ]

Umm, I mean RR, you'd think they'd come up with a better naming system...