428 replies to this topic

[Glenn]

Not only that but .006 of slop in a brand new valve guide seems like a lot. Is there any provision in the rules to account for "valve guide slop"? How large of a valve guide slop can I show up with claiming it's a used head? I'm just a cuban but .003" + .006" x 16 valves = how much HP? If there's nothing in the fine print to reign in these tolerances then too much is left up to creative appealing....

Valve guide "slop" is not a good thing........

[Jim Drago]

Not only that but .006 of slop in a brand new valve guide seems like a lot. Is there any provision in the rules to account for "valve guide slop"? How large of a valve guide slop can I show up with claiming it's a used head? I'm just a cuban but .003" + .006" x 16 valves = how much HP? If there's nothing in the fine print to reign in these tolerances then too much is left up to creative appealing....

Don't remember saying there is .006 slop in my guides, if there was I would be changing them.

It doesn't seem like some people want to hear the truth, rather just trying to poke holes. This is my last comment on tech or the tool. If anyone wants details or facts regarding the inspection, the tool or non issues, you can call SCCA and speak to Ryan Miles, he did the inspection and has my permission top speak candidly about my head. We have nothing to hide.

[Alex Bolanos]

Don't remember saying there is .006 slop in my guides, if there was I would be changing them.

It doesn't seem like some people want to hear the truth, rather just trying to poke holes. This is my last comment on tech or the tool. If anyone wants details or facts regarding the inspection, the tool or non issues, you can call SCCA and speak to Ryan Miles, he did the inspection and has my permission top speak candidly about my head. We have nothing to hide.

You said:

with .006 slop in a new valve guide.. That is Only if tool is inserted perfectly straight. If is rocked at all, that number gets bigger or smaller.

Are you suggesting that your guide had less slop? More? It's difficult to poke holes in smoke and mirrors, that's not what this is about. I'm just trying to understand what happened, no need to get defensive champ.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

.006 slop designed into tool= inaccurate measuring, one way or the other ( if tool is perfectly perpendicular.. it could fall in a hole that is roughly .00299 smaller than the spec.

Alex I am no machinest, engine builder, tech guru, or benchracer... I also have no bone to pick as you know i LOVE mexicans

But the answer is right there above, nowhere did anyone say that anyones specific head has .006 slop inb the valve guide, it is simply stated that the tool has .oo6 slop built into it.

Since I am but a mere caveman, who can barely read or type, I have to leave the question for other much smarter than I is that to much slop or to little slop built into said tool?

If that is the tollerance and it is a known tollerance, I dont see how this differs from a minimum wieght of the crank or the rods etc etc. anyone can build said tool as designed and build their heads accordingly if they so wish. I am nothing but astonished at DDG claim that the builders dont have access to this tool, if they can build a motor producing 127-130hp with the new RP, my caveman brain say they are surely smart enough to make this tool at their own machine shops...

I can remember just last year when you could have 129-130hp and you motor was amazing and that was with a 41mm RP, we now have a 38mm RP with almost identicle power. That blows my mind...

[Weekend Warrior]

I think he is Cuban not Mexican.....

[High Chair]

How was it not ok in 2011 when one car was invloved but ok in 2012 when two cars where involved? Did politics have anything to do with it? Drago who wrote the appeal on that tool? When they checked Andrews car after yours was Dqed and under appeal his passed in 25 minutes using the same tool. Yours took like 5 hours

[Todd Lamb]

It's pretty easy to understand what happened - they all passed and that's that.

There is drama in the tech shed every year, always has been and always will be. There are many cars that pass tech because they are legal, and a few that fail because they are not legal. I've heard so many incorrect assumptions and distortions of reality - it is mind boggling how people can come to certain conclusions based on this misinformation.

I will say this based on my engineering background, having never looked at the gauge in question or reviewed the drawings: A measurement is only as good as the tool it is measured with (accuracy), and even then unless that measurement is repeatable (precision) it is meaningless. It sounds to me like the gauge design didn't take into account all the factors necessary to ensure both accuracy and precision. SCCA officials recognized that based on those other factors, the gauge did not provide a relevant measurement.

Does anyone have any irrefutable FACTS to add (not opinion, assumption, or hearsay)? Perhaps someone called Ryan Miles that did the SCCA tech?

[Todd Lamb]

How was it not ok in 2011 when one car was invloved but ok in 2012 when two cars where involved? Did politics have anything to do with it? Drago who wrote the appeal on that tool? When they checked Andrews car after yours was Dqed and under appeal his passed in 25 minutes using the same tool. Yours took like 5 hours

I think we've all been informed that there was no appeal?

[Todd Lamb]

I am going to explain this one time only...

Both cars were legal! A go/no go gauge was used. The gauge used was not the design the SMAC submitted.

The gauge needs to fit into the valve guide to be accurate. The gauge works fine EXCEPT when used in a worn valve guide.

When inserted in a worn hole the tool had "slop"... we are talking about measuring .00X in hole that had more slop than the fixed gauge.

When measured with a real valve and caliper both cars were legal, not even a question!

The CS retracted the action. The race was not won on protest or appeal...IT WAS WON ON THE TRACK.

Congratulations : Jim, Craig, Von C, and Stephan T...All who took cars apart and all passed.

To refresh some memories.....see above.

[Bench Racer]

After viewing the tool drawing I fully understand people being upset/or happy. A checking/go-no gauge tool with tolerances in the thousands. Duuuu.

EDIT:

Forgot this part, most likely require several flags/stems to fit different valve stem holes.

Being I haven't seen the in question valve guides (were the valve guide holes outside the FSM specs of .0008 total tolerance, there is no valve guide hole roundness spec altho it is suggested the diameter be checked one way & then 90* to that one way), that may be part of the issue & because I did view the checking tool it is no question part of the issue. + .0000/-.0050 on a .2354 diameter for a tool checking what its checking is out of bounds. Yes, there is an issue or we wouldn't be posting on this subject.

Thinking a bit further maybe when these sloopy valve guides (larger than the maximum spec in the FSM) show up during the SCCA checking process the rule needs changing that requires a new valve guide to be inserted & the checking tool stem has a honey moon fit minus a bit. Shouldn't matter because the valve guide is worn out, correct.

[Steve D]

...unless any of us can hold a tool straight within .003 of an inch over a 4-6 inch tool?

Quit picking on me. Wikipedia says I'm well within the bell curve.

[High Chair]

I think we've all been informed that there was no appeal?

The distinction between lobbying on ones behalf by those that should not be lobbying because they were supposed to remain independent and objective and a formal appeal is one of the problems at the heart of this issue.

[High Chair]

To refresh some memories.....see above.

the gauge needs to fit into the valve guide to be accurate. The gauge works fine EXCEPT when used in a worn valve guide.

So Drago and Berry should up with worn valve guides? In fairness to the champ I will not post anything else until all the info is out.

[Todd Lamb]

OK so just to be clear, you are now changing your position from "there was an appeal" to "there was not an appeal"?

Exactly who do you think was involved in the tech process on the SCCA side?

[SaulSpeedwell]

It's pretty easy to understand what happened - they all passed and that's that.

There is drama in the tech shed every year, always has been and always will be. There are many cars that pass tech because they are legal, and a few that fail because they are not legal. I've heard so many incorrect assumptions and distortions of reality - it is mind boggling how people can come to certain conclusions based on this misinformation.

I will say this based on my engineering background, having never looked at the gauge in question or reviewed the drawings: A measurement is only as good as the tool it is measured with (accuracy), and even then unless that measurement is repeatable (precision) it is meaningless. It sounds to me like the gauge design didn't take into account all the factors necessary to ensure both accuracy and precision. SCCA officials recognized that based on those other factors, the gauge did not provide a relevant measurement.

Does anyone have any irrefutable FACTS to add (not opinion, assumption, or hearsay)? Perhaps someone called Ryan Miles that did the SCCA tech?

(Edit: Todd, it occurs to me this post could look like I'm yelling "at" you. I'm not, I'm in agreement with you, but used your post as a launching point ....)

As a fellow engineer who almost got bounced from P2 for one wrist pin (out of 4, obviously) that was 0.003" undersized at only one end ... and worse, the Scrutineer reported it as 0.030". Was it "noncompliant"? Yep. Does anyone in their right mind think a frontrunner or engine builder would undersize one end of one wristpin 0.003" on purpose? Or that it would make a difference? But a volunteer in trifocals with a dial caliper can measure within 0.003" reliably? No way. No friggin' way.

So, I'll go a step further and say that the measurement is only as good as the guy doing the meaurement, as well. (And don't get me started on the GD MF-ing "Whistler"!!!)

For every person who thinks a few thousandths makes a difference, grab your micrometer and prove to yourself how small 0.001" really is. Pick up some items laying around your garage, measure them. Take 10 measurements and write them down. Hand the tool to your buddy and ask him to take 10 measurements. Compare high and low measurements. Report back.

You could pay Boeing $5B to build an SM, and still have at least 2 dozen parts of the car that were 0.001" - 0.006" out of "spec". I am 100% confident that Mazda and every other automotive OEM and supplier ships product every day that is out of "spec".

There are many frontrunners that care about their reputation, and some who do not. I was once a "witch hunter", too, until I was torn down the first time. You change your tune very quickly when you see how quickly we can all become "cheaters".

I can't help but recall that we've had frontrunners (some who went on to podium and win multiple Runoffs) who tried to convince us that the engine builder put in the wrong restrictor plate!!! A restrictor plate that was wrong by far more than a few thousandths. And their crew chief never noticed or checked? Really? Really?!?!?! But now suddenly we're here quibbling about THIS Runoffs? And THIS measurement? Where were you guys in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011???

Website BS is what it is ... but there is a big difference between getting caught shoplifting because your "buddy" put a pack of gum in your backpack when you weren't looking ... and robbing a liquor store at gunpoint. Both are "illegal", right?

We've had both kind of "Champions" in this class, but I'll never confuse one with the other.

[Todd Lamb]

the gauge needs to fit into the valve guide to be accurate. The gauge works fine EXCEPT when used in a worn valve guide.

So Drago and Berry should up with worn valve guides? In fairness to the champ I will not post anything else until all the info is out.

Let's just hope this so-called info is FACTUAL.

[SaulSpeedwell]

Quit picking on me. Wikipedia says I'm well within the bell curve.

Technically speaking, everyone is within the bell curve Some people are so special that they can move the end-points, though.

[FTodaro]

the gauge needs to fit into the valve guide to be accurate. The gauge works fine EXCEPT when used in a worn valve guide.

So Drago and Berry should up with worn valve guides? In fairness to the champ I will not post anything else until all the info is out.

This would be good but some of the information is already out that the tool portion that fits into the guide was not long enough so that warn guide or not, if the tool was not long enough even on a perfect guide its not accurate.

Not sure what all the drama is about, post race and post confirmation of compliance. If you have a problem with the way the SCCA runs its tech and the tools that they have crafted that is fine, but the way you keep angling your posts its sounds like you doubt Drago's sportsmanship and effort to become the champ. As they say that horse has left the barn and on the way to the glue factory.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

this is just my opinion, so it carries no real weight, but this subject is going no where and it only galvanizes the opinion of the masses in the class that anyone going faster than you must be cheating. I could see why some could be pissed about how the race was run and won, at the end of the day, team driving is not against the rules, is it a competitive advantage He ll Yes...

Nothing stoping others from teaming up in an effort to get the top rung.

Its really kind of simple if you think there is something underhanded going on pick up the phone... The man has his cell nuber on every add he has ever put on the site, have hardly ever not had him answer the phone.

many will make a phone call or pm to someone who had us all Breathless, from shooting of at the mouth and winning on the track out of no compliance, but Jim cant even get that same courtesy call if you have questions?

Caracter assasination doesnt sove any problems, problems are solved through direct contact, communication and mutual respect. I respect all of you here that have contrary opinions on this, I have no dog in the fight as I wasnt there, and dont know what did go down.

Those that were and have problems should take up the argument with a personal phone call.

I have personally raced against many of you, and I have never once ever thought you were cheating if you beat me on the day.

I also feel I have friendships on both sides of this argument, so I have mostly kept out of this other than to ask for a link to the tool, or to clarrify a post, which I would have clarrified in reverse if someone had misinterpreted what what was said the other way.

[MPR22]

Technically speaking, everyone is within the bell curve Some people are so special that they can move the end-points, though.

They are known as deviants.
Kyle is clearly on the far end of the curve.