58 replies to this topic

[Terrell Garrett]

Quite frankly I am tired of the tire discussion but here we must go yet again.

Our current Regional tire policy is a mish-mosh. We can use this tire and that tire and maybe a 10 year old 888 but we can't use some other tire. At least by now I would hope everyone has used up their crappy 888's and that one has no more discussion.

My vote is one of the following:

1. SM6 and H2O only.

2. Any DOT tire you want to include the one off your grocery-getter.

Personally I prefer the RA-1 over the SM6 but SM6 is the national tire and therefore logical if we are to choose only one tire. As far as the H20's, I think everyone can agree that they are not only amazing, but much safer than un-shaved RA-1's or anything else out there we know about.

No matter what the consensus is, I feel we should accept it and drop it rather than bitching for four months after the horse left the barn like last year.

It would really be nice to know what tires to have my family buy me for Christmas since mine are all burners now.

Bruce, I assume you are still the boss on this so would you please take over from here?

Terrell

[Terrell Garrett]

By the way, there were 14 out of 25 yesterday afternoon with a fast lap within a one second spread. Some SM6's, some RA1's, so what does it matter? Nevertheless, it was some great racing last weekend.

[Randy Thieme]

Seems like one of the main issues in past discussion has been the grandfathering of old tires for the sake of those on slim budgets. Another variable this year is the new Toyo RR SFR has been discussing. I agree with Terrell's position there are two choices. ( A ) Only allow the national tires (SM6/H2O) or ( B ) Allow any DOT tire. For the latter case I would add restrictions of a minimum treadwear rating and the size must be 205/50-15.
I also agree the sooner a decision the better. That way there's not a mad rush to buy tires in February.

[Keith Novak]

I think it's a simpler question this year. Hoosiers. It's the National tire. Last year people had tires to use up. They had the opportunity to do that this year. Absolutely no on the new Toyos. Let's let others see how they do for treadwear in specific. It's a tread wear rating 40. Isn't the RA1 a 100?

Between the SM6 and the RA1, there doesn't seem to be much performance difference except at Pacific. Apparently the rain tires are night and day different. Don't know about The Ridge. I don't know anyone that tried both tires there. Both tires made huge dust clouds when dropped off the pavement. It's brand new asphalt and will be again once they put the top layer on. Even considering people who will do both Conference and SCCA, about half the Conference field is running on the Hoosiers already.

I don't think Bruce is going to head up the resolution of this question. Last I heard he's painting the house a foot at a time trying to figure out what color to use to complete the job.

[Bruce Wilson]

Okay enough goading already! We finally picked our color after bringing in mediation and a marriage councelor

We'll get it done early this year. I have a little extra time since I WON'T be building multiple racecars for the 25 this year...

Let's do what we always do,get all the opinions and concerns on the table and see how it all plays out.

My preference would be stick to one tire next year and get rid of all the grandfather rules just to get it all cleaned up and back to spec. But should I be allowed to vote, not being a regular and all?

-bw

[Sean - MiataCage]

First of all Mr. Wilson...... Who told you that you are not helping the team get cars ready for the 25?

My personal opinion on this is that there is ZERO reason to allow anything other than the National Spec Tire. More than enough time has gone by now for anyone and everyone to use up any old tire inventory. There are so many people on Hoosiers now that you can even buy take offs. I raced a little in both Conference and SCCA this year and saw a large number of Hoosier tires at races in both clubs.

The RA1 is no longer the Spec Tire for NASA as they are rolling out the RR for next season. If we allow that tire, that is going to mean testing at each individual track which means it is going to cost everyone more money and you may end up with a specific tire for each track.

If for some reason there are still RA1's out there, they can be used up in STL. Oregon Region SCCA is also working on a 90 minute enduro for the end of day Saturday on selected race weekends in 2013 and you could burn them up there as well.

If anyone wants to argue the Toyo's are faster longer deal, I will respectfully disagree when it comes to Portland. I ran a 1:31.7 on 12 heat cycle Hoosiers this past weekend, and I am just not that good.

Thanks...... Sean

[Randy Thieme]

In the enduro will any tire be legal?

[Sean - MiataCage]

In the enduro will any tire be legal?

That is the theory. All of the details have not been worked out yet, but it will more than likely be a 3 group enduro. Probably broken up via either displacement or speed. I am thinking 3 groups. It will NOT be an SM specific enduro, however there is noting stopping us from creating our own little enduro championship outside of the sanctioned event.

Thanks.... Sean

[Terrell Garrett]

Bruce,

I think you have earned the right to vote and wish you would get to working on your car for next year.

Sean,

1:31.7 and you are not that good? The fast lap in the Sunday afternoon SM race was 1:31.4. I was on cloud nine with my personal best 1:32.4 using 2009 model RA-1's.

One thing we should consider is the possibility of joint races with Conference next year which is being shopped around. Personally I like the idea of a 50 car field and don't want to exclude them. They are good people and fun to race with.

I will vote for SM6/H2O if it helps get the decision made sooner. Either way if fine with me.

Terrell

[Kyle Keenan]

It's no secret that I prefer the Toyo's, but if the Hoosier is the national tire, maybe that's what we should all run.

I could see allowing a driver who only runs a race or two (rose cup) and only has an older set of R888's or RA1's to run them. Several conference drivers told me this year they didnt run SCCA solely because they didnt realize that you could run something other then hoosiers. They want to come race, but don't want to have to buy a $700 set of tires just to run one weekend with us. I worry that by going hoosier only we're giving the cold shoulder to some drivers who want to come out and play.

[Randy Thieme]

Several conference drivers told me this year they didnt run SCCA solely because they didnt realize that you could run something other then hoosiers. They want to come race, but don't want to have to buy a $700 set of tires just to run one weekend with us. I worry that by going hoosier only we're giving the cold shoulder to some drivers who want to come out and play.

I'm usually in favor of grandfathering as I'm on a showstring budget but my 2013 plans are for nothing but new tires. Finding a long diagonal slash in my right front solidifies that plan. Guess I got a little too aggressive cutting across the gator strip at the apex of T1.

We should be flexible to help attract drivers from other states and other series. Not just Conference. There's also SFR SCCA and maybe even some NASA drivers from the Golden State. We had out-of-town guests for Rose Cup a few years back and it was great. Except for the usual Washington suspects I don't think we've had any out-of-town Group 1 guests since.

[Keith Novak]

It's no secret that I prefer the Toyo's, but if the Hoosier is the national tire, maybe that's what we should all run.

I could see allowing a driver who only runs a race or two (rose cup) and only has an older set of R888's or RA1's to run them. Several conference drivers told me this year they didnt run SCCA solely because they didnt realize that you could run something other then hoosiers. They want to come race, but don't want to have to buy a $700 set of tires just to run one weekend with us. I worry that by going hoosier only we're giving the cold shoulder to some drivers who want to come out and play.

It's not much different from me buying RA1s because I didn't realize I couldn't run Hoosiers in conference. They didn't read the SCCA sups. I didn't read the conference sups. We don't have 2 national sanctioning bodies like NASA and SCCA. The conference tire rules are based on the SCCA OR/NWR rules but lag a year. Whatever was legal last year in SCCA is legal the next year in conference too. I think the sooner we run A tire, the sooner there will be less perception of a lack of parity and we'll get MORE crossover. If we want to allow open tire rules, allow it for CSM. We run in the same group.

[Sean - MiataCage]

If we want to allow open tire rules, allow it for CSM. We run in the same group.

Uh oh...... Here is where I become the bad guy.

I am proposing that we remove CSM from OR SCCA for 2013 or at least move it to another run group. The reason CSM came about was Jeff Clark felt the costs of SM were escalating with $1,100.00 dollar clutches and he didn't want to be a part of the cost escalation. He founded CSM in Conference and then OR SCCA added it in I think 09 to allow for the CSM cars to come run with us for the Mazda Gran Prix. Since then the costs have been contained in the last few years and the "engine claimer" portion of the CSM rules has never been and will never be utilized. There is no longer any reason to run CSM in OR region. The numbers don't show that it has been being used and the rules have changed since it was started.

We have a ridiculous number of classes of cars that run in OR SCCA. I can't remember but I think it is over 60. We have 18 classes that did not have a single entry last year in OR SCCA. Part of the changes for 2013 calendar year is to remove classes that are not subscribed to and to combine run groups. I think groups 3, 6 and 7 will all be combined to give us an open run group to do something like the enduro.

In order to grow the region and make it stronger we have to stop adding (or keeping) classes for 1 or 2 cars to participate, once or twice a year. I will spare you all the details, but basically SM, SRF, and Vintage represent about 80% of the overall entries on any given weekend. I am not proposing that those cars don't show up and run, nor am I proposing only having Spec Classes. I am proposing that if it is a handful of cars that only run once or twice a year that they run in a catch all class or classes. Having to do trophies, flags etc for single car classes that show up once or twice a year is not good business.

I/We are not in any way shape of form trying to keep Conference drivers from coming to play with us. I/We am trying to eliminate un-necessary classes and combine run groups to allow for the enduro or special races and grow the strength of the region. Any Conference driver that wants to come race with SCCA is more than welcome and can run under current SM rules. Running CSM instead of SM also impacts our "Full Fields Program" that Jim Weidenbaum put together for this year that essentially gives credits back to drivers when the car counts are more than 20 SM's.

Before people try to beat me up on the price of Hoosier's, and a competitor having to spend $700.00 for a single weekend, there are enough of the front runners selling low heat cycle Hoosiers for around $300.00. I have yet to purchase a single new Hoosier tire all year.

This past weekend we had 24 entries and not a single one was CSM. Because of the car count number being above 20, each entry will allocate $20.00 to be put into a fund and given back to the drivers. Looking back on all of 2012 there were only (2) CSM entries on one weekend and (1) of them was Randy and he seems to have switched to SM since the June race. It needs to go.......

At the end of the day this is a Spec Class, not a run whatever tire you want class. If you want to deviate from the norm, then I am proposing it be done in a (or as a) 2nd run group. Lets put the Spec back in SpecMiata and continue to grow the numbers. 24 cars without Will, Ken, Jason, Robert, Thomas, and myself is fantastic. Maybe we can get back to 20+ car fields every weekend.

For 2012 through July we averaged 15.6 entries.... SRF was 15.5 and the next closest was then VP-2 at 5.8 and then Spec911 and VP-1 tied at 2.8. Everything else averaged below 2 cars.

Thanks..... Sean

[Jim Boemler]

Solid argument, Sean.

[Terrell Garrett]

I'm sold Sean. The only reason Randy ran CSM was that I goaded him into it. We figured since there was only one CSM entrant he needed a racing buddy. It turned out good as the two CSM cars actually battled to the end of each race. Get rid of that class, it does not belong in SCCA.

[Randy Thieme]

Looking back on all of 2012 there were only (2) CSM entries on one weekend and (1) of them was Randy and he seems to have switched to SM since the June race. It needs to go.......

Terrell's being nice but he didn't really goad me. The two cars Sean is referring to were in CSM Rose Cup weekend. At first only a single car was registered in CSM. The driver of that car had hit me in the previous year's Rose Cup (2011). When I saw that same driver was the only one registered in CSM for this year I switched to CSM and held a grudge match, which I won. Score between us is now even. I agree with Sean, let's say goodbye to CSM.

[William Bonsell]

Quite honestly, after championing CSM this year due to a Toyo tire contingency, CSM does not belong in Conference either. Both my son and I gave up running CSM and ran SM at The Ridge event and subsequent ICSCC events. So, should SCCA wish to do away with CSM, I think that's fine. But that is for another discussion, I guess.

While I understand Hoosiers can be faster at some tracks, they do seem to go away after 8-10 cycles. Is that not correct? Will making Hoosier the spec tire increase the costs for everyone, especially those who are happy to run mid pack and have no desires to compete on a national level? I think there were some significant rewards from Hoosier for those national events. I trust that is not a driving force behind a tire decision.

While my SCCA participation is minimal, Oregon's tire decision effects Conference. I would personally like to see the H2O spec'd as the rain tire (for safety if nothing else) and the Toyo RA-1 or RR as the regional tire. Not sure if that is possible, but I fully intend to try and run the H2O rain tire next year.

Last race of the year is ICSCC event at Pacific on the 29th and 30th of Sept. If anyone still have money in the racing budget, come on out. There is also a special Japanese race...we be the Mothra class!

Bill-

ps: Also, don't forget the 8 Hour Enduro at Portland on the 20th of October. Ran it last year and it was a blast.

[Terrell Garrett]

I am not sold that the Hoosiers go away after a few heat cycles. Sean was running against some damn fast drivers and was 3/10ths off the fast lap of the afternoon on old Hoosiers. Would he have been faster on new ones? Maybe; but not much given the numbers and certainly not enough to matter for a mid-pack or back-pack driver. Let's just use the Hoosiers and move on (and I love RA-1's). After all, it is about relative speed to the competition, not ultimate speed. This is a spec class. If ultimate speed is the issue, go run SPO and spend $150k a year racing. Hmmmm, maybe that's why there are usually only one or two cars in SPO

[colin.koehler]

As a non Miata, non rwd racing hooligan I can say that I smoke from the same track pipe. I'm with Terrell and from my vantage of point of FWD, the Hoosiers can last pretty long if driven correctly and at the right PSI. They seem to like a higher PSI than the Toyos (and per Hoosiers recommendations) and they do not like being slid. We've found that sliding them around not only can cause them fall off hard during a race but can reduce the number of valuable sessions. I saw 15 sessions before they were down on time (last year) and Rick and I both set, then reset our personal bests on Hoosiers with me running them into the cords during the ITA race.

Rick, John and my data won't mean much as we're all FWD guys but we found that the difference between RA1s and Hoosiers is at minimum 1 second and upwards of 2+ with the biggest advantage at PIR and ORP (no RA1/R6 data at Ridge) and smallest delta at PR and SCR. YMMV. However, the SM6 price is really nice and you don't have to shave them.

Also the Purple Crack doesn't like the sun (no UV inhibitor unless Hoosier changed that policy) so keep them covered.

I only popped into to offer this insight/opinion/subjective whatchamahoolit because I don't really like either company but I like Toyo less and less as they've become less and less competitive in price. 1010 sells them for 186/tire without shaving so after shaving you're at 200/tire. The SM6 is 166/tire at Frisbey and you don't have to pay to shave. It just seems like Hoosier wants your business more and hey, who doesn't like faster lap times?! Hoosier has a history of improving a tire without changing the name or making a big fuss about it. It's my understanding that the R6 of today is superior in grip and longevity than the R6 of 2008, but I don't have data to confirm this so please ask your Hoosier rep.

Alright, back to your regularly schedule Miata programing. See you at the IRDC race Bill.

[sgarrett]

Sorry Dad, I love the Hoosiers.