54 replies to this topic

[Danny Steyn]

I thought I would start a thread to discuss the VIR Bump drafting discussion

Thanks to Skip for outlining one of the significant points of the weekend. We had a closed door session with all the SM drivers and the SCCA stewards regarding bump drafting. There were lots of calls from the corner workers for metal to metal contact, and the GCR requires that this has to be followed up by the stewards.

So the stewards asked us how they wanted us to handle it. In conversations with drivers before the meeting it was apparent that we were all missing shifts and that’s why we were getting hit from behind……

But in all seriousness, with all the cars so close in power and the skill levels so close, the only thing that it preventing the Hail Mary dive bomb pass in the corners is the bump-to-pass. The Schumi years killed the

F1 show so they introduced KERS, the variable tire compounds and then the Drag Reduction System. In Indy Car they had to introduce the Push to Pass button. Now they have a show. And Spec Miata has an amazing show, partly due to the bump-to-pass drafting that makes passing possible. We had several lead changes every lap with no side to side contact.

As Alex pointed out, in other classes the variance in bumper height and materials makes bump drafting dangerous and destructive, but it works well in Spec Miata. Stewards Bob Hudson and Rick Mitchell even asked if we should propose an amendment to the GCR for Spec Miata. If that is even possible we should SERIOUSLY lobby for it for sure.

But there is no doubt that none of the drivers want the bump drafting to go away. It is being done safely, it is making the racing so entertaining, and most importantly it is putting a smile on our faces and that’s

what keeps us coming back for more.

And all respect to the SCCA for involving us in the discussion, and taking no action against any drivers. I hope this is something that continues and somehow becomes and accepted part of this class. Obviously it needs to get communicated to the corner workers so that they only call in egregious contact.

 

 

 

What metal-to-metal contact????

 

 

[Mike Asselta]

I blacked out during the geese video, but Danny's post caught my attention.  In eight years of SM, I've never considered bump drafting as method for getting a pass done.  

 

This is interesting and a kind of cool.  We often bump draft to work together to get away or to catch up.  Also, I've bumped or been bumped as a "courtesy" when making the pass seemed too optimistic, so a little help and notice seems like the friendly thing to do.

 

But "bumping to pass" is honestly a new concept to me in SM, and we should discuss it in order to clarify when and how this takes place safely and in the spirit of sportsmanship.

 

The cleanest "bump to pass" I can recall in recent history was Harvick on Johnson at Fontana in 2011.  I've never pushed a guy deep into a corner, but is this what we're talking about folks?  On a road course, this could end very differently.  

 

http://www.youtube.c...K9KpF1C_Y#t=35s

 

And then there's the Bristol bump...we're not talking about that are we?

 

Plastic to Plastic 

[Danny Steyn]

I blacked out during the geese video, but Danny's post caught my attention.  In eight years of SM, I've never considered bump drafting as method for getting a pass done.  

 

This is interesting and a kind of cool.  We often bump draft to work together to get away or to catch up.  Also, I've bumped or been bumped as a "courtesy" when making the pass seemed too optimistic, so a little help and notice seems like the friendly thing to do.

 

But "bumping to pass" is honestly a new concept to me in SM, and we should discuss it in order to clarify when and how this takes place safely and in the spirit of sportsmanship.

 

The cleanest "bump to pass" I can recall in recent history was Harvick on Johnson at Fontana in 2011.  I've never pushed a guy deep into a corner, but is this what we're talking about folks?  On a road course, this could end very differently.  

 

http://www.youtube.c...K9KpF1C_Y#t=35s

 

And then there's the Bristol bump...we're not talking about that are we?

 

Plastic to Plastic 

 

 

Mike - Nope this is NOT what we are talking about. We are talking just plain old simple two cars working together going by one guy hung out to dry - watch my video " This is why I love Spec Miata", and watch poor old me get freight trained by guys working

together - the really good part start about 7:50 and ends at 9:15 - I go from 6th to 1st to 9th !!!!!

 

We are NOT talking about bumping someone in the braking zone, or pushing him too fast through a turn!!!! :-)  PS - I love the idea - Spec Miata - Home of "Plastic to Plastic" 

 

[Jim Drago]

As far as a rule allowing bump drafting in SM, and Sm only. I almost fell out of my chair.    That will NEVER happen, nor will allow bump drafting per the GCR.  Not sure how NASA does it, but I know that would never get through risk management in SCCA. The best we can hope for is not enforcing the rule IMO. 

 

As far as the show and being much more fun etc.. Our "fan base" is VERY limited, despite how great we think our racing is, "our fans" are our friends and family and some other club racers who have a few minutes to spare and watch our races between their own races. 

 

 

I don't agree with this entire bump to pass deal and making the racing exciting. My goal is to make the race as boring as humanly possible. If I could drive away from every field, I would love that boring race every time . I am sorry, but I race to compete for the win, not to make the fans happy or provide excitement to anyone, I am fine with boring.  

 

There is a time and a place for bump drafting, I think well over 50% of the class does it WRONG and over 25% of the class is down right dangerous doing it at times. The term needs to be changed.. BUMP drafting should be a MAXIMUM. I see many CRASH drafts.. Done correctly it is a slight constant push, you should barely slow the rear car. The touch should barely be felt and the two cars should move in tandem.   If you are bouncing and then bouncing again, you are hurting your speed, not helping it. It is not fair for me to judge and say I can and you can't. but VERY few do it well and some see the front runners doing it and are down right dangerous. 10-20 mph differences in speeds is a crash, not a bump draft.  

 

My main goal with bump drafting is to try and get away from the field, not to shuffle up and back through the order and make the racing more exciting?  It sounds like you are advocating some type of leap frog push and pass deal.  I have no issue with it, but certainly nothing I would willingly participate in as it seems counterproductive? 

[Danny Steyn]

Jim - the first thing I said in the meeting when the SCCA stewards ASKED US if we should get the GCR rules changed for SM was, is the EVEN a possibility and what about insurance rates......

[Mike Asselta]

Mike - Nope this is NOT what we are talking about. We are talking just plain old simple two cars working together going by one guy hung out to dry - watch my video " This is why I love Spec Miata", and watch poor old me get freight trained by guys working

together - the really good part start about 7:50 and ends at 9:15 - I go from 6th to 1st to 9th !!!!!

 

We are NOT talking about bumping someone in the braking zone, or pushing him too fast through a turn!!!! :-)  PS - I love the idea - Spec Miata - Home of "Plastic to Plastic" 

 

http://www.youtube.c...tch?v=prTrvwrXQ

 

Mike - Nope this is NOT what we are talking about. We are talking just plain old simple two cars working together going by one guy hung out to dry - watch my video " This is why I love Spec Miata", and watch poor old me get freight trained by guys working

together - the really good part start about 7:50 and ends at 9:15 - I go from 6th to 1st to 9th !!!!!

 

We are NOT talking about bumping someone in the braking zone, or pushing him too fast through a turn!!!! :-)  PS - I love the idea - Spec Miata - Home of "Plastic to Plastic" 

 

Perfect clarification Danny...and your video is a must watch for every SM driver.  

 

Thanks for playing along...I don't want any SM'er reading here that we're interested in bump and run type driving.  We're not.  

 

You and Jim are really talking about the same thing...draft up on a straight, light contact and connect with the car ahead to give more speed to both.  In the corner...no contact.  Speed differential?  No contact...go around.  What Harvick did? No.

[Mike Asselta]

To further the point Jim makes about "doing it wrong"...some guys are way to casual about contact with another guy's rear end.  If its going to give YOU the advantage...don't do it.  Don't even think about it.  

[Rob Burgoon]

Perfect clarification Danny...and your video is a must watch for every SM driver.  

 

Thanks for playing along...I don't want any SM'er reading here that we're interested in bump and run type driving.  We're not.  

 

You and Jim are really talking about the same thing...draft up on a straight, light contact and connect with the car ahead to give more speed to both.  In the corner...no contact.  Speed differential?  No contact...go around.  What Harvick did? No.

 

 

So much confusion in this thread.

 

Looked to me like Harvick just gave Johnson a different speed at the end of the straight than he was used to and Johnson choked.  It's not like Harvick bumped him up the track in the corner.

 

Jim, you can give someone a mild springy thump and have both cars turn quicker lap times.   The car in front gets a push, the car in the back is still in the draft, and closes right back up.  Just because constant contact is what you need to do in your region to avoid ire from officials doesn't mean it's superior.  Do you have any video examples of bad bumps and good bumps?

[Jim Drago]

Rob
Yes you can improve your lap time with whatever you described above.. But still not the best way to do it and it is not an opinion. If done right, you will improve your lap times over what you describe above, without a doubt. I think many that have raced against us will attest that we actually do it pretty well

 

On video, I have hard enough time posting something I feel like posting. I am sure we have all seen bad bump drafts, I have seen atleast five or six broken diff housing from bump drafting.

 

 

What you put here shows that you have no clue what I am talking about, maybe read and digest first, make judgments and contradictions later?

 

Here is your line...

Just because constant contact is what you need to do in your region to avoid ire from officials doesn't mean it's superior.

 

 

 

That statement has ZERO to do with how I chose to bump draft.   

[davew]

Great pic taken by Ann of Advanced Autosports. Visit our facebook page for more pix from both VIR and Blackhawk this weekend.

 

I kinda forced my way into this meeting. Since I am currently not a licensed driver. But as usual I opened my mouth and voiced an opinion.

 

What Danny said in the meeting was absolutely spot on. No harm-no foul

 

What gets the Stewards excited is that the corners call in the contact. That creates a paper trail that the Stewards must now react to. And we all know most Stewards don't like to react !!!!

 

The Stewards always have a choice of which rules to enforce. They could measure wheel weight, or track width or compression ratio or Nomex socks. But they choose to worry only about stickers and inconsiquentel nose to tail contact. I would rather see them worrying about things that make a difference and leave the driving to the drivers.

 

Dave

[Rob Burgoon]

I've actually never seen a "bad" bump draft.  I've heard about one broken diff housing but never saw the collision that did it.

 

I've felt one that was marginal and asked the other driver to dial it back a couple mph, but nothing outrageous.

[Rob Burgoon]

There's probably some bumps in this race, anyone want to point out the bump drafts that are too much of a bump?

 

[Brocodile]

In daily life, we have all become familiar with the phenomenon of prosecutorial discretion. With the overwhelming number of laws and regulations, it is practically impossible to comply with them all - or even to know them all. Likewise, from the standpoint of enforcement, applying them all universally and arbitrarily would require more police, judges and lawyers than the economy could support and the people would tolerate. Add to this the fact that, although well-intentioned, many laws, rules and regulations are ill-considered, too restrictive, and over-broad, leading to unintended consequences and injustice when applied in individual situations.  Thus, for example, we find police giving drivers a cushion over the speed limit, which the vast majority of drvers consider too low.

 

The legal tome known as the SCCA GCR is no exception. The no-contact rule is well-intentioned and generally well-conceived. It applies fairly and logically to nose-to-tail contact in most classes; e.g., all open wheel and also closed-bodied classes where the various cars have no bumbers or bumpers at different heights. On the other hand, Miatas are all practically identical, with neatly matched front and rear rubber bumpers. As noted above, bump drafting enables easier passing on the straights, making for more entertaining and safer racing by reducing the temptation to make low-percentage moves in the braking zones and turns.

 

Bump drafting is a perfect case for the application of prosecutorial discretion. And lest anyone launch into the "slippery slope" argument, make no mistake: prosecutorial discretion is already pervasive throughout the SCCA, as it must be as a pracical matter. Just thumb through the GCR and consider how many of those items are checked in post-race tech. Tech needs to be more thorough, but that's a subject for another thread. A focus on bump drafting in SM is majoring in the minors and could result in its own unintended negative consequences. As far as on-track behavior goes, let's focus on the type of contact that ruins driver's races, not the kind that helps. I agree with Jim Drago that it would be impossible to change the written rule to make an exception for SM. It would be counter-productive even to try. That said, there is no need to change the rule; merely, it should be enforced with discretion, within context.

[Danny Steyn]

In daily life, we have all become familiar with the phenomenon of prosecutorial discretion. With the overwhelming number of laws and regulations, it is practically impossible to comply with them all - or even to know them all. Likewise, from the standpoint of enforcement, applying them all universally and arbitrarily would require more police, judges and lawyers than the economy could support and the people would tolerate. Add to this the fact that, although well-intentioned, many laws, rules and regulations are ill-considered, too restrictive, and over-broad, leading to unintended consequences and injustice when applied in individual situations.  Thus, for example, we find police giving drivers a cushion over the speed limit, which the vast majority of drvers consider too low.

 

The legal tome known as the SCCA GCR is no exception. The no-contact rule is well-intentioned and generally well-conceived. It applies fairly and logically to nose-to-tail contact in most classes; e.g., all open wheel and also closed-bodied classes where the various cars have no bumbers or bumpers at different heights. On the other hand, Miatas are all practically identical, with neatly matched front and rear rubber bumpers. As noted above, bump drafting enables easier passing on the straights, making for more entertaining and safer racing by reducing the temptation to make low-percentage moves in the braking zones and turns.

 

Bump drafting is a perfect case for the application of prosecutorial discretion. And lest anyone launch into the "slippery slope" argument, make no mistake: prosecutorial discretion is already pervasive throughout the SCCA, as it must be as a pracical matter. Just thumb through the GCR and consider how many of those items are checked in post-race tech. Tech needs to be more thorough, but that's a subject for another thread. A focus on bump drafting in SM is majoring in the minors and could result in its own unintended negative consequences. As far as on-track behavior goes, let's focus on the type of contact that ruins driver's races, not the kind that helps. I agree with Jim Drago that it would be impossible to change the written rule to make an exception for SM. It would be counter-productive even to try. That said, there is no need to change the rule; merely, it should be enforced with discretion, within context.

 

 

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^ best worded explanation I have ever read! Thank you Skip.

[Jim Creighton]

Danny, your opinion of bump drafting may change when you get to the Runoffs and some other driver with a team mate or two bump draft away from you and leave you sitting all by yourself wondering what happened. It's a lot of fun until others make you the victim of having no dance partner. I consider it a form of cheating, two drivers using something that is prohibited to gain an advantage over another.

 

I say decide a win or loss on the merits and ability of one car, one driver, not who has the most friends.

 

Until the GCR is changed to allow it specifically, it is intentional body contact. If I were operating Steward, you'd get a black flag and come tell me what is wrong with your vision. Once that happened a couple of times, bump drafting would be a thing of the past.

 

But, you are safe now since I am not nor do I want to be a steward. I would do your tech deal in SEDiv if you guys put something together. And if you do, be prepared to stay late!

 

 

[Mike Asselta]

You're a hard lad, Jimminy Crackorn!    

[FTodaro]

I've actually never seen a "bad" bump draft.  I've heard about one broken diff housing but never saw the collision that did it.

 

I've felt one that was marginal and asked the other driver to dial it back a couple mph, but nothing outrageous.

 

I busted a diff in the car in front of me with about a 6 to
9 mile differential in speed, due to a missed shift. Its not that big of a hit
if you hit them when they are not moving forward under power but the car is
rocking back from a missed shift.

 

On the issue of a rule change. The problem of a rule change
is that the general rules of racing promotes sportsmanship and competition with
NO IMPACT. Generally contact is not desirable and is often grounds for
punishment.

You know the old saying if you give an inch they will take a
mile. That would open the door to all kinds of interpretation. Its easier to
have a rule that is not enforced then to try and enforce a vague rule.

 

[Rob Burgoon]

"If you are bouncing and then bouncing again, you are hurting your speed, not helping it"

 

Jim D

 

That I disagree with.

 

I could agree with the idea that the fastest way around the track is a 99 with another 99 nose to tail pushing down each straight.

 

However, as a 95 owner that races with mostly 1.6 and 99 cars, it doesn't match up great.  8 times out of 10, I give someone a push because we're halfway down the straight, I have a run but not enough for a clean pass so I give the guy a shove.  He goes faster, I slow briefly then close back some and we enter the corner with a gap between us under braking that I am comfortable with.  Net gain over a soft bump and backing off, and also a gain off of laying back.  Huge gain over a failed pass attempt.

[Jim Drago]

Rob The sky is blue... What do you think?

[Tyler Dahl]

I missed a couple of shifts once and Pratt Cole bumped me all the way down the front straight a couple times in his ssb mustang. I wish I had data to see how fast I was going.