54 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Rob The sky is blue... What do you think?

 

Black with little white dots and a big round light gray thing I'd say.  Hardly blue!

[FTodaro]

Going back to Danny's post I think Bump Drafting is allowed in NASA. John M. might comment but we have never had an issue with it in NASA. In SCCA i try not to do it in front of a flagger if at all possible. 

[LarryKing]

I consider it a form of cheating, two drivers using something that is prohibited to gain an advantage over another.

 

I really like this outlook. I'm opposed to officially permitting bump drafting.

[granracing]

Jim, I really like how you stated it and absolutely agree.

 

I just laugh thinking about the new SM only driver's school test on how to properly bump draft. I don't have video of it, but my first attempt bump drafting was not great. During a practice session, came up on a friend and gave it a try. Ooops! I got sucked in faster than expected, and it was a good thing we were friends as it was much more than a slight bump. Just because the front runners have the talent, money to invest on proper coaching and seat time doesn't mean that 95% of the rest of the field does. And when the front runners are doing it, you damn well better believe that culture will funnel throughout the pack.

 

I admit that since it has become accepted in SOME regions, I've done my share of bump drafting. Although while doing it I have given thought to what Jim mentioned in his post. There's no reason why we can't just draft and "need" to bump each other. For what it's worth, in the N.E. (and know other regions are doing this too), they are trying a contact impound where any contact needs to be reported and written down. There's a lot more to this but it does include bump drafting.

 

Consistency with how this is applied is important. A couple of years ago a driver who knew how the hosting region viewed bump drafting signal the driver behind for a bump where a corner worker could see it, benefit from the bump and see the other driver get a penalty for contact at the conclusion of the race. Smart play on the lead driver’s behalf.

[Alex Bolanos]

  There is a time and a place for bump drafting, I think well over 50% of the class does it WRONG and over 25% of the class is down right dangerous doing it at times. The term needs to be changed.. BUMP drafting should be a MAXIMUM. I see many CRASH drafts.. Done correctly it is a slight constant push, you should barely slow the rear car. The touch should barely be felt and the two cars should move in tandem.   If you are bouncing and then bouncing again, you are hurting your speed, not helping it. It is not fair for me to judge and say I can and you can't. but VERY few do it well and some see the front runners doing it and are down right dangerous. 10-20 mph differences in speeds is a crash, not a bump draft.  

 

My main goal with bump drafting is to try and get away from the field, not to shuffle up and back through the order and make the racing more exciting?  It sounds like you are advocating some type of leap frog push and pass deal.  I have no issue with it, but certainly nothing I would willingly participate in as it seems counterproductive? 

 

 

I like that term actually... CRASH draft. I agree, there is definitely some drivers that do it WRONG.  Here's one example from COTA:

 

[Mike Asselta]

Now THAT is funny, Alex!  

 

Obviously, there is so much torque in the 99 that its twisting the frame rails and causing the cars to weave on the front straight.  That's a very narrow track...barely room for two to squeeze by as it is.  

 

Seriously, this is not Craig Berry's modus operandi.  He is a clean racer, and not just by the lower Texas standard.

 

Now, can we all just agree to vindicate Charbs from the 2012 "incident" so he will come back and post funny stuff?  

[Rob Burgoon]

I really like this outlook. I'm opposed to officially permitting bump drafting.

 

So you ban it.  The trouble is now you've banned something impossible to enforce without ketchup packets.  If there's a ban on bump drafting, then the fast folks will now "push-draft" instead and break contact briefly as they pass each corner station.  Congrats, you just made it worse.

[Jim Drago]

Not sure if you could see it from back from where you were, but this is what it looks like when done correctly   

 

 

 

2012 Runoffs qualifying 2

 

 

1   2 Jim Drago 02:43.063 

2 29 Craig Berry 02:43.069

3 72 Chris Haldeman 02:43.910

4 27 Tom Brown 02:43.941

5 74Matt Reynolds 02:43.969

6 39 Danny Steyn 02:44.083

7 58 L Patrick Sandlin 02:44.110

8 09 Stephan Tisseront 02:44.213

9 41 Voytek Burdzy 02:44.216

10 56 Todd Buras 02:44.221

11 67 Andrew Charbonneau 02:44.373

12 68 David Bednarz 02:44.389

13 Alex Bolanos 02:44.656

[LarryKing]

Congrats, you just made it worse.

 

How is it worse? Believe me, if you DQ a few blatant offenders it may not eliminate the practice but it will sure decrease it.

 

PS: I'll spring for condiments.

[Craig Berry]

Alex, I knew you could not wait to post the photo of me making a mistake....even though it has NOTHING to do with bump drafting.   I was on Pole on the first lap, even though I may not be on your level I know that door slamming the #2 qualifier at the green flag on the first lap is Not good....Per my own video, I was watching my inside mirror and drifted over.   I am very sure you have never made a mistake.   I have called Andrew....who always races me tough but fair.... and Appologized for almost ruining both of our races.   We have to react quickly and I may not be on your level....I make mistakes.   Glad you found a way to finally post the pic.

Lets go back to actual bump draft talk, some may benefit

[Todd Lamb]

I am for bump drafting in SM, but for those not aware, SCCA Pro does not allow bump drafting (also not allowed: non-contact drafting in qualifying) in MX-5 Cup.

 

If you bump draft in MX-5 Cup (all cars have mandatory video and data that goes to the series after each session), it's pretty likely they're going to call you out on it (with some exceptions for tight racing in a pack with incidental contact) and you'll end up with a fine or penalty. But this requires a lot of effort to review videos based on corner worker reports and/or trackside video.

 

Highly unlikely this could ever be fairly enforced in SM without mandatory video reviews.

[Rob Burgoon]

How is it worse? Believe me, if you DQ a few blatant offenders it may not eliminate the practice but it will sure decrease it.

 

PS: I'll spring for condiments.

 

You've increased the gap between honest drivers and sneaky ones.

 

Going to need some GCR overhaul to make the packets survive appeal.  Also there's the problem of drivers "missing a shift" or braking early to blow up their competitors packets.

 

It's a lot of work to fix a non-problem.

[LarryKing]

Non-problem for people with a teammate(s).

[Rob Burgoon]

Non-problem for people with a teammate(s).

 

Even without pushing and ketchup packets it's still the same problem with drafting.  Write the letter I guess.

[Brocodile]

Even without pushing and ketchup packets it's still the same problem with drafting.  Write the letter I guess.

An insightful observation by the Burgoon King. Bump or no bump, at tracks with long straights, a partner is necessary for the best results. It's a good policy to get to know the drivers in your region who turn times similar to yours. Talk it over. See if you can work together in qualifying. Form a mutual benefit society and move up the grid together. You may even make a friend.

[Danny Steyn]

Non-problem for people with a teammate(s).

 

Moose - I am one of those guys without a team mate, but we ALL know that we will ALL go faster with a push, so there are many instant team-mates-of-convenience at different times during the race. Even that guys that I compete with will push me if it benefits them. Of course when it gets to the end of the race, and they have a choice of who to push, I know it might not be me.

 

I have pushed pretty much everyone in this class, and been pushed by everyone at different times. 

 

The reality of tracks like VIR and Road American where there are three 5th gear straights, is that a good dance partner will help you shave 1.2 - 1.5 seconds off your lap time. So if you go out and run an absolutely perfect lap on your own, chances are that it will not be close to a relatively average lap run in tandem with someone else. This is true for qualifying and for racing. So as Skip says, making friends is a critical part of doing well in this series. And up front you can see how everyone is treating each other with respect and giving room, because on the next lap you might need that guy that you are racing with to help move you forward.

 

I had a conversation with a younger driver who was prone to dive bombing in the braking zones, even in test day, and I asked him if he thought that he was going to get any help from anyone in the race if he kept doing this, and you could see the lights go on!!!! Cleaned up right away and suddenly he is a perfect team-mate-of-convenience, and we have worked together in qualifying and in the races.

[LarryKing]

I am one of those guys without a team mate

 

Then I must assume that you hang out under the OPM bigtop for the cuisine.

[Danny Steyn]

[High Chair]

Mike - Nope this is NOT what we are talking about. We are talking just plain old simple two cars working together going by one guy hung out to dry - watch my video " This is why I love Spec Miata", and watch poor old me get freight trained by guys working

together - the really good part start about 7:50 and ends at 9:15 - I go from 6th to 1st to 9th !!!!!

 

We are NOT talking about bumping someone in the braking zone, or pushing him too fast through a turn!!!! :-)  PS - I love the idea - Spec Miata - Home of "Plastic to Plastic" 

 

Danny I really like the end of the video!! I almost pulled the paint off your car when we went by you. All I can say is that in 6 or 7 years of SM and racing bumper to bumper with most of the drivers on here I can say that I have never been called in for bump drafting nor have I seen a wreck because of it. Lets face it; it is not going away no matter how they try to enforce it. It may require a little more planning but if I am racing for a win along with one of my friends I am still going to push them even if I get DQed. Sorry but thats how this game has played for a long time and is what draws many of us to the class. So I don't get a little plaque to throw in the trash when I get home. Get us some tech and leave our bump drafting alone!

[Danny Steyn]

Jamie

that video is still my favorite race of all time, and it was because of the bump drafting, that kept on shuffling the order around. I love how we all drive around Selin on both sides of him at 8:22 and then when all three of you went off in front of me in the Bus Stop at 8:30, you can see my thumb on the radio button telling Fowler... "it wasn't me that knocked them off!"....... and in the car, I look up at the rear view mirror and there is no one close and it looks like I had the race in the bag, only to go back from 1st to 8th on the SAME LAP! Bump drafting can really make racing very exciting