104 replies to this topic

[john mueller]

Would be great to have both classes on the same tire.

 

Don't really like the idea of an open tire as everyone will be trying to find what is a couple tenths faster, and some will get there sooner.  Eventually most will be running just one tire, and some on the pointy end will be running a different tire for each track, but that prep level is inevitable regardless of tire rules. 

 

I only have 1 track other than Mid-Ohio that I've ran the RR's, (they sucked at Mid-Oh new), and they were pretty good there (Putnam Park), but seemed to fall off after the 7th or 8th heat cycle.  Now, these tires may still be good on other surfaces for a few more cycles, just not enough data collected so far to really tell. 

 

 

 

Initial tests on a PTE / E3 1.6 Miata (btw, not mine) of the RR had a single set running up to 8hrs in three enduros (2 @ Buttonwillow & Sonoma) and many many warm-up, Qualifying & sprint races at these same tracks (I estimate 9 to 12 'sprint' cycles).  We utilized multiple experienced drivers (again, not me), times did not fluctuate very much and there was no complaints of them 'dropping off'.  All we did was flip them on the wheels, rotate from corner to corner and store them in black plastic bags.  As Hille says it may be 'a track thing', but in Cali with proper maintenance I've not seen big drop off in times.

 

Once again from my biased position I feel it necessary to point out the NASA remained with the RA-1 while the RR was being developed for our use.  NASA SM had a very active hand in developing the tire with myself and Rob Bougoon involved at the first tire test (three different constructions with the current RA-1 & RR compound).  By design, the RR should have more grip that the RA-1 (construction differences) with just as good life (same compound as RA-1) and won't need shaving - which is exactly what everyone I asked wanted in a tire at that time.

 

Now folks are complaining about rain tires - 'eff me!

IMO the RA-1 is a perfect rain tire where smart drivers finish and smart drivers with car control and big onions podium.  A 'proper' wet weather race tire, just like a grippy dry takes a portion of the driver out of the equation.  Plus for us it will be spec tire so if it sucks it does for everyone.    I like the fact with a shave'able tire I can have full depth (long life / heavy rain) or shaved down for intermediates, so we can have degrees of sucky'ness.  Fun, I tell ya.  Fun!

 

NASA will not go for open tires in SM, it's not good for the class so that ain't gonna happen on my watch.   BTW, anyone want a job?    You want to run open tires, go play in PT class.

[Mike Asselta]

One from the simpleton in the peanut gallery:

 

As long as it doesn't need to be shaved, I don't care which R compound tire we run as long as 1) everyone runs it and 2) it has the lowest (or near lowest) overall cost for club racers to acquire and use

 

Doesn't really seem like a hard question.

[EPrill]

Couple of thoughts from an interested lurker

 

1. Don't assume that the marked tire needs to be from a specific qualifying session or even from the same event as being raced. The idea could be to mark tires that have been cycled, at some point. Yes, mechanics of this process management would need to be worked out, but I don't know that this should be the concern over whether this is a desirable practice. Yes, it needs to be something that can be handled and maybe it can't. The question is--does it provide a desired result?

 

2. Interesting comments regarding compound and this should also be considered, but is a separate topic to the stamping. I have yet to see any sort of race tire that was not at its peak as a new tire from a stick standpoint. Harden the tire up, conventional wisdom says its still faster as a sticker. Point here is that those that can afford to sticker up will continue to do so and those that emulate these people will feel compelled to do the same.

 

3. Also regarding compounds (maybe someone wants to start a different thread?) Personally, I find the H2O awesome on my FP car, but I'm competing against guys with other brand tires. I stayed out our entire wet practice at COTA just because I was highly entertained. It would be interesting to hear if the tread pattern of the H2O (the old WET design) is desirable for SM but with a different compound offering less wear (and likely grip). Again, separate topic.

[Todd Green]

Couple of thoughts from an interested lurker

 

2. Interesting comments regarding compound and this should also be considered, but is a separate topic to the stamping. I have yet to see any sort of race tire that was not at its peak as a new tire from a stick standpoint. Harden the tire up, conventional wisdom says its still faster as a sticker. Point here is that those that can afford to sticker up will continue to do so and those that emulate these people will feel compelled to do the same.

The issue isn't about stickiness it is about weight.  Go weigh a new RR tire vs a shaved 1/32" RA1 and you may be surprised by the difference. 
(Also to a minor extent you get a gearing advantage with a shaved tire.)  Hence the reason why people are taking new "molded" tires and shaving them.

[Johnny D]

The issue isn't about stickiness it is about weight.  Go weigh a new RR tire vs a shaved 1/32" RA1 and you may be surprised by the difference. 
(Also to a minor extent you get a gearing advantage with a shaved tire.)  Hence the reason why people are taking new "molded" tires and shaving them.

So what's better? shaved or 195/50?

But I guess the Dunlop Star is the only one.

J~

[KW78]

Couple of thoughts from an interested lurker

 

1. Don't assume that the marked tire needs to be from a specific qualifying session or even from the same event as being raced. The idea could be to mark tires that have been cycled, at some point. Yes, mechanics of this process management would need to be worked out, but I don't know that this should be the concern over whether this is a desirable practice. Yes, it needs to be something that can be handled and maybe it can't. The question is--does it provide a desired result?

 

 

I guess I don't understand the point of marking the tires if it is not to run the race on the tire you qualified on for that day's race (or however long you want to extend to)?

 

What else is marking tires trying to accomplish?

 

Are Rain tires a big deal nationally?  Seriously, it seems many people won't race in the rain even at big events, so the "pure" aspect of keeping a spec class on spec rains seems to be diluted there.  I've gone out in a wet session at the runoffs to find 3/4 of the class sitting it out and not trying to be a "fast" rain driver.  (I love racing in the rain, btw.)

 

I think rains should not be soft gumballs.  The toyo R1R seems like the perfect rain.  You can get into a drying session and not ruin your rains.  And, there is not a significant performance advantage to new rains versus cycled ones like there is on the hoosier.  I think rain racing isn't important enough to do anything but keep you from hydroplaning and wrecking.  I certainly don't think we need a tire that turns into an "intermittent" tire so it needs replaced with a fresh sharp edged sticky one.

 

Kyle

[Jim Drago]

Initial tests on a PTE / E3 1.6 Miata (btw, not mine) of the RR had a single set running up to 8hrs in three enduros

You almost need to throw enduros out the window. Most all of the good tires, Hoosier, BFG etc all do well in long enduros. The problem is sitting like we do between races and cycles. I havent tested the RR, sure it is a good tire, but it is heavy, if rumors are true about just how heavy, most will end up shaving it. Isnt it the RA1 compound ( or one of the 4-5 that never changed? )


Mike Asselta quote...
"Doesn't really seem like a hard question"

Question is not hard, correct solution seems a little more tricky

[Johnny D]

You almost need to throw enduros out the window. Most all of the good tires, Hoosier, BFG etc all do well in long enduros. The problem is sitting like we do between races and cycles. I havent tested the RR, sure it is a good tire, but it is heavy, if rumors are true about just how heavy, most will end up shaving it. Isnt it the RA1 compound ( or one of the 4-5 that never changed? )


Mike Asselta quote...
"Doesn't really seem like a hard question"

Question is not hard, correct solution seems a little more tricky

Looks like RRs are 20lbs, Hoosiers are 19lbs.

Oh look, Hankooks are 19 too and little less $ according to TireRack.

http://www.tirerack....veIndex=05ZR5A6

J~

[FTodaro]

Initial tests on a PTE / E3 1.6 Miata (btw, not mine) of the RR had a single set running up to 8hrs in three enduros (2 @ Buttonwillow & Sonoma) and many many warm-up, Qualifying & sprint races at these same tracks (I estimate 9 to 12 'sprint' cycles). We utilized multiple experienced drivers (again, not me), times did not fluctuate very much and there was no complaints of them 'dropping off'. All we did was flip them on the wheels, rotate from corner to corner and store them in black plastic bags. As Hille says it may be 'a track thing', but in Cali with proper maintenance I've not seen big drop off in times.

Once again from my biased position I feel it necessary to point out the NASA remained with the RA-1 while the RR was being developed for our use. NASA SM had a very active hand in developing the tire with myself and Rob Bougoon involved at the first tire test (three different constructions with the current RA-1 & RR compound). By design, the RR should have more grip that the RA-1 (construction differences) with just as good life (same compound as RA-1) and won't need shaving - which is exactly what everyone I asked wanted in a tire at that time.

Now folks are complaining about rain tires - 'eff me!
IMO the RA-1 is a perfect rain tire where smart drivers finish and smart drivers with car control and big onions podium. A 'proper' wet weather race tire, just like a grippy dry takes a portion of the driver out of the equation. Plus for us it will be spec tire so if it sucks it does for everyone. I like the fact with a shave'able tire I can have full depth (long life / heavy rain) or shaved down for intermediates, so we can have degrees of sucky'ness. Fun, I tell ya. Fun!

NASA will not go for open tires in SM, it's not good for the class so that ain't gonna happen on my watch. BTW, anyone want a job? You want to run open tires, go play in PT class.

John, you can keep the job.

Ok if you don't like open tire then what about letting competitors use ether a toyo or a Hoosier. Both clubs could get more entries and both tires company's could get double exposure. Seams like a win win. Years ago in NASCAR, ran both Goodyear and Hoosier.

[Alex Bolanos]

So for those who do/did the top 5 or so, COTA, Sprint, etc. Is everything cool??

 

Is this just a region Sup that need to be hashed out per region?

 

Interesting in my region, they run Hoosiers and RA1's in SM but no RR's.

But you can start in the back on any tire.

J~

 

I don't think everything's cool, having to buy two sets of tires per weekend is not acceptable.  Our team hasn't done nearly as many regionals due in part to this problem so SCCA does need to get involved.  If strongarming Hoosier to develop a new hard spec compound then lets do it.  Signing a contract with Hoosier for this long was a mistake, they didn't make a new compound especially for us so there should have been no need for an economy of scale.

 

Marking tires is useless, lets run street tires instead.

[Waterboy]

Hoosier's have done nothing to make the racing better, they are more expensive to run, you can't practice on old hoosiers and get reliable information, etc. etc.

 

If that is not enough to warrant a change don't know what is.

 

The end.

[john mueller]

I usually don't say much on this site but I do have a few hot buttons and when there is a perceived lack of parity (and all it entails) drives me nuts.  That's where the/this tire discussion fits...  I know this thread started out about SCCA marking tires and quickly morphed into the noise it is now.  Facts:

• SCCA moved away from Toyo because it was thought to be in the racers best interests.
• NASA stayed with Toyo because they thought to be in the racers best interests.
• NASA worked with Toyo to create a better tire for us where just moments after the announcement at Mid-Ohio I was getting bombarded by people complaining they they had just bought RA-1's.

Guys, SCCA and NASA are not out to 'get you'.  They strive to continuously attempt to improve the racing so you continually come out to go racing.  Sometimes attempts to improve don't work and sometimes it does.

 

You people are 'effing mind boggling or just daft...  It's the best it's been in YEARS!

 

 

You almost need to throw enduros out the window. Most all of the good tires, Hoosier, BFG etc all do well in long enduros. The problem is sitting like we do between races and cycles. I havent tested the RR, sure it is a good tire, but it is heavy, if rumors are true about just how heavy, most will end up shaving it. Isnt it the RA1 compound ( or one of the 4-5 that never changed? )

 

I included enduro info not to say the RR's run good in them but to point pout that they have life after running lots of hours on the SAME tires.  BTW, time span between usage of these SAME tires were seven months.

 

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but by now you all should know I get my facts straight (or as straight as I can deduce) before I spout off.  I've heard the story from the mouths of the guys who 'presented' the RA-1 as the tire for SMs use...  So unless they are telling me a tall tale, the RA-1's original wear-rating was just a number plucked from the sky and when it changed a few yrs later it was to provide a real number.  So, this number change was NOT a compound change just a correction in provided tire data (because it was now being used in many other forums).

 

 

 

Ok if you don't like open tire then what about letting competitors use ether a toyo or a Hoosier. Both clubs could get more entries and both tires company's could get double exposure. Seams like a win win. Years ago in NASCAR, ran both Goodyear and Hoosier.

 

NASA will never go for it as they already have a place where open tires run.  PT class.  Sorry.

 

 

If you recall the NASCAR tire war era did not work out (see below)...  BTW: I'm not suggesting that sort of nonsense would happen to us as our volumes are not high enough to significantly move the needle ($$$) for two companies.

 

 

http://articles.orla...g-goodyear-tire

 

http://articles.dail...-tire-companies

[luckymiata76]

Since we're way off topic here...I think Kate Upton is gorgeous. Let's talk about that for a year and a half.

[LarryKing]

NASA stayed with Toyo because they thought to be in the racers best interests.

 

So all the money Toyo gives NASA has nothing to do with it?

 

PS: does an 8 hour enduro count as one heat cycle?

[Johnny D]

 

 

PS: does an 8 hour enduro count as one heat cycle?

 

That's what I was wonder from running my enduros in 2011. (Hankooks)

I'd say yes, because I'm still running mine. Just got one tire bald a few weeks ago, but I was out for a while so no high numbers.

J~

[john mueller]

So all the money Toyo gives NASA has nothing to do with it?

 

PS: does an 8 hour enduro count as one heat cycle?

 

 

And the money Hoosier gives to SCCA doesn't either.    I was involved just enough to know it was not THE determining factor, it was the agreement to develop a racing tire with NASA leading and the contingency program.

 

I'd say yes, one cycle but could be wrong.  The test set I keep referring to had three enduros on them and three double-dip sprint weekends on them.

[Johnny D]

This is a really good statement.

NASA stayed with Toyo because they thought to be in the racers best interests.

 

Can you say....

SCCA stayed with Hoosier because they thought to be in the racers best interests.

 

Just stirring the pot here.

J~

[Rob Burgoon]

So all the money Toyo gives NASA has nothing to do with it?

 

PS: does an 8 hour enduro count as one heat cycle?

 

It's worth clarifying that it's probably more like "all the tire money Toyo gives NASA racers"

 

NASA wants marketshare.  They picked a tire that they felt had the best chance of getting it.

[Tom Sager]

Since we're way off topic here...I think Kate Upton is gorgeous. Let's talk about that for a year and a half.

And you are definitely an authority on that topic.   

[Todd Green]

SCCA stayed with Hoosier because they thought to be in the racers best interests.

Not speaking for the SCCA, but IIRC most racers wrote in saying they wanted a molded tire.  Toyo didn't have one at the time, BFG/Hankook didn't have an R-compound wet, so Hoosier was a pretty logical choice.  (Though perhaps you could have used one of BFG/Hankook's higher-end street tires for the wet.)