104 replies to this topic

[davew]

I do not always agree with Todd, but he has had the 2 best posts on this entire thread. Hoosiers are fast, expensive, short lived and hard on suspension parts. If Hoosier came out with an SM10 compound, that lasted longer and had grip levels closer to the Toyo, we would all be better off.

 

The RA1 was not a great tire, but it was a great tire for Spec Miatas. I do not have an opinion on the RR's because I do not have any experience with them in race conditions.

 

We have another full season on the Hoosier contract. So I doubt anything will happen untill then. But here is my wishlist for tires.

 

Long life, does not drop off speed after 10 sessions

Mid pack can run 20+ sessions

Realatively cheap, $175 retail with some discount room for those of us reselling the tire

Shaved vs molded is a double edge sword. Not having to shave the Hoosiers is nice, but not being able to make a slightly used rain into a dry tire is costly. But that cost is only used about 5% of the time. So it may actually be a toss up.

Contingency should be WAY down on the list, only a few drivers ever see any real benefit. And most of them can afford to buy their own tires. Sorry Danny!

Track side support is hit or miss. The only track side support we have had in Cen-Div was at the Blackhawk National, and that was only until noon. Florida, VIR etc have had trackside services.

 

And to think, we have a year and half to argue about tires !!!!!!

 

Dave

[LarryKing]

There are many other tire manufacturers/brands besides Toyo and Hoosier.

 

Just sayin.

[KW78]

Thoughts and opinions - some may say uniformed but its what I go with....

 

I left the class the second year of Topeka runoffs because I witnessed 2 of top 3 SM efforts use 8 shaved, 1/32 toyos, PER QUALIFYING SESSION to get the top spots.  In 20 minutes, they did 3 laps, tire change, 3 more laps.  I followed them on MYLAPS (god did that get F'd up now) and they were messing around with +/- a tenth or two.

 

 

A tire you throw away to get to the fast part is a really bad idea.

 

Hoosiers are decent for the class IMO.  The tire management game is worth more than 40hp to lap times, and the hoosier is good at a different point than the ra1s but at least there is tire left over for practice etc.

 

Marking tires is a bad idea.  For one, you will see bunches of miatas in the paddock not running to conserve tires for the race.  

 

I ran the toyo RR's on a 25 hour car and was not that impressed with the longevity. 

 

I ran BFG's on a 25 hour car and am very impressed with that longevity.

 

I ran shaved Hankook RS3's at the 25 hour, and that was a great tire all things considered.

 

I ran shaved Dunlops at the 25 hour.  This is the only tire that should be considered to replace the RA1.  It is decent as a rain tire, shaves to 5/32nds and runs good.  Shaves to 4/32 and runs great.  A 4/32 tire is *almost* as fast as a worn thin RA1.  The tire was consistent, and thinner isn't faster.  When you get thru the sticky rubber around 1/32, the tire falls off a shelf but it is not corded yet.  It takes a season of heat cycles to get there and it dropped less time than any other tire over its life that I have seen.

 

If the class wants to stick with a "race" tire, then I think the hoosier or the BFG is the answer.  IMO, we should not have a single spec tire, but a couple of choices.  It is like the shocks - there should be 3 valving options.  Unless your driving style conforms to the spec feel generated by the tires/shocks then you are toast to those who are.  I mention shocks because bolting BFGs onto my SM felt very strange.  It is like the spring rate of the tire is much more so the shock couldn't dampen it well on bumps and curbs.

 

If the marking tires "test balloon" is being floated, chances are it is already mostly decided and on the horizon.

 

My .02

 

Kyle

 

NOTE:  Too lazy to look it up for sure, but from memory the dunlop was $107, hankook $112, RA1 $143, RR - SM6- and R1 all $165-$171.....   ish....  

[Jim Drago]

I took the 1/32 excuse out as well, I shaved my 2009 runoffs tires to 1/32 The rest of the year a fat 2/32 or 3/32.
The RR are being shaved regularly already? So while it doesnt need to be, it is much faster if it is, so people will be shaving them.

I have not had to buy tires all year except one set of rains. I still have not "wasted" my tires stickering up. I use stickers when I need them, but other than Sebring this year, I have never felt the need to put on stickers. At Sebring the car was off, so even though I could have used stickers, I saved them as I wasn't winning anyway. I think you can easily race the tires competitively further out than many are claiming. I don't want to be hypocritically. I don't race past 5-6 sessions. I think if I had to, they would be fine as I have practiced on 10-12 session tires and they were fine. More depends on how long they sat, how they were broken in ( I do it entirely wrong for longevity as does anyone else qualifying on stickers) and most importantly, the track. If asked a simple for or against marked tires, I would probably say against as I don't think it accomplishes anything and will be a lot of wasted time and effort for nothing. In a matter of a few days, Collins will have every marking device made in every color ink possible

[Mike Collins]

In a matter of a few days, Collins will have every marking device made in every color ink possible

 

Yep....

[Rob Burgoon]

FWIW, with hoosiers right now I already try to spend as much time off the track as I can. 

[Bench Racer]

 In a matter of a few days, Collins will have every marking device made in every color ink possible

Ya know the ol saying, a poacher makes the best game warden. 

[Jim Drago]

Rob - its because Jim only cares about the Sprints and the Runoffs that he is doing 12 weekends this year ..... no way to stay sharp with 3 weekends!

100% correct, also why I qualify for STL in my SM car. It kills two birds with one stone. Trying to get STL car back together for Sprints, but will be iffy

[fishguyaz]

FWIW, with hoosiers right now I already try to spend as much time off the track as I can. 

a very telling post that is NOT good for a class.

I will elaborate more: I have yet to buy the hoosiers, nor will i.

I will race a different car before i start to spend that kind of $ racing a SM.

 

the $ you guys are talking, and the wear you are getting, and the tire prep that you are doing, you may as well just run goodyear 160.

 

 

from the reading in this thread, and other threads since the change IMO it is an accurate comparision.

tires are the biggest expense we have, so keeping the price down will only HELP everyone in the class.

race alone sucks................

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Not sure what u r talking about brad Pitt... numbers at races are actually up this year. Cota sold out in 45 minutes. Mid Ohio already had 29 as good if not better then last year. Sprints is at 40 will probably be 50. So who is racing alone? I am all for a tire that is fast from new till it cords, what tire would that be? I am for marking etc... if hats what people want, also don't care if someone has a set of stickers for every session. I spend what I feel is appropriate not what danny or gorilla feels is apropriate. I actually liked the ra1 he best, but I have to say its harder to win on a Hoosier cause everyone has improved on the tire... entry fee and travel expense is way more expensive than a set if tires... the initial investment to race is the real dough a car, trailer, tow vehicle, tools, gear and on and on. On my street car I don't buy the longest lasting tires I buy what rides nice and performs well. When you have some good ideas let us know rather then just gripe about the tire we are on

[FTodaro]

Who ever said we are starting early on the discussion of
tires in light of the current contracts is right, we have a lot of time to
bitch.

 

If you really wanted to do something good for this class
you would get SCCA and NASA on the same page. It is absolutely BS that we have
to run 4 different tires. Rains and Drys x2.

 

I have has some experience with the RR Its good at most
places except my home track Mid O. Any old tire is better than a fresh any tire
at Mid O. since all the RR’s are new they suck there.

 

What I would like to see. Is a harder compound tire used,
for longevity? I have ran the BFG and it’s a harder compound and it’s an
awesome tire. Have used it in Regional competition and can kick ass on any toyo
or Hoosier.

 

The down side is the BFG does not have a rain as of yet.

 

Anyway, I would love to see just one tire between the two
classes. If you can't get that accomplished then go to an open tire, it would at
least allow competitors to go to one tire if there budget dictates is. Yes that
is going the wrong direction of the intention of this thread, but that is how I
see it.

 

Each club doing its own thing and its costing people like me,
who like running both an arm and a leg.

 

IMO.

 

 

[Johnny D]

Kyle I see your point traveling like you do but a set of tires don't cost less when people run their region. Just both sides of the coin here.

IDK, for Majors Hoosiers may be the hot ticket and why turnout is up.

Regional may not be a value, IDK, and more $ for crossover, I think everyone is loosing.

 

A tire that Heat cycles out isn't what I'm looking for. I'm looking for fine wine, better with age.

Now if people want to spend $ speeding up that tire by shaving, stickers,whatever, fine, but it shouldn't be the default setting.

 

FYI, Hankooks Ventus Z214 has C51 mediums and C71 softer but we need to look at the whole picture of support/contingency.

J~

[Jim Boemler]

Sure seemed like the class was happier in the RA1 spec days.    Just sayin'...

[MPR22]

I like the RR better than the RA1, seems to last longer, especially if you don't shave it. I don't like a tire that heat cycles out at 6-8 uses (basing this on my driving habits and my experience). Never driven the BFG but Frank has me convinced its a viable option, I have talked with the dealer responsible for contingency payout and they say there is a rain tire. What did the Playboy Cup run in the rain when the spec tire was the BFG?

The cheapest option would be the Dunlop Star Spec 195/50/15. $122, each at tire rack. I don't believe they make it it in a 205/50/15.

I do think both organizations should be on the same tire. That leads us back to the Toyo RR as the tire contracts don't expire contemporaneously and SCCA contract is up first.

[Tom Sager]

It would be nice if both NASA and SCCA ran the same tire but I think it's unlikely to happen as long as you have 2 different groups of decision makers, 2 or more competing tire companies on 2 different contract cycles.  

 

After reading the thread, I doubt we'll get a lot of support for racing on marked tires in SCCA and there are good arguments on both sides.  

 

No matter what tire is chosen, there will always be some method of maximizing performance of those tires and some will be willing to go to greater effort to do that.  

[Danny Steyn]

............there will always be some method of maximizing performance of .................(insert anything)...........and some will be willing to go to greater effort to do that.  

 

This is what racing is about. Maximizing performance. Prep, coaching, data analysis, engine, tire, setup, .......it never stops....

[Todd Green]

So we should just compromise and have RRs for the dry and H20s for the wet.  We get "HoHoyo" or "ToHoHo" stickers made up for the cars and everyone is happy.  Right?

[Johnny D]

So for those who do/did the top 5 or so, COTA, Sprint, etc. Is everything cool??

 

Is this just a region Sup that need to be hashed out per region?

 

Interesting in my region, they run Hoosiers and RA1's in SM but no RR's.

But you can start in the back on any tire.

J~

[JRHille]

Would be great to have both classes on the same tire.

 

Don't really like the idea of an open tire as everyone will be trying to find what is a couple tenths faster, and some will get there sooner.  Eventually most will be running just one tire, and some on the pointy end will be running a different tire for each track, but that prep level is inevitable regardless of tire rules. 

 

I only have 1 track other than Mid-Ohio that I've ran the RR's, (they sucked at Mid-Oh new), and they were pretty good there (Putnam Park), but seemed to fall off after the 7th or 8th heat cycle.  Now, these tires may still be good on other surfaces for a few more cycles, just not enough data collected so far to really tell. 

 

I'm sure there are many who would like to run both NASA and SCCA but shy away just because it doesn't seem worth it to buy 2 new sets of tires.  IMO it would bring entries up for both classes substantially, but obviously one of the tire companies would get the shit end of the stick. 

[KW78]

This is what racing is about. Maximizing performance. Prep, coaching, data analysis, engine, tire, setup, .......it never stops....

 

I agree, but I think it is important for the class that the hot setup is not shave a new tire to 1/32.  The traditional (for most racing classes) way of the hot setup of being on a sticker or scuff is way better for everyone - you have tire left over that is pretty damn reasonable for the next practices, testing, or the next test day to learn a track. 

 

I run BFG's on the car in STL, they are pretty incredible.  And, unlike all other tires talked about here including TOYO, they have contingency support that rivals hoosier.

 

Kyle