43 replies to this topic

[LarryKing]

Mike did say "With all due respect".

[Jim Drago]

Johnny, are you familar with the production car rules from the 60's

You are one here that was alive then. I am old and I wasn't even born then

[Johnny D]

I guess if this did fly, it could be a sticky wiicket if NASA didn't go with it, unless they stopped caring a long time ago, IDK.

J~

[DES4]

That's quite a stretch to make a car competitive, claiming it to be an altogether different year than it actually is, just it so it can comply to a different rule set.

 

Not too sure that's within the spirit of the rules. There are subtle differences with each successive model year in spite of outward appearances, and I wouldn't want to be the one that had to determine if the 1994 being raced as a 1997 might not have some over-looked advantage. It'd always be a questionable car as far as compliance goes. I'd avoid going there.

[Bench Racer]

I'm too busy arguing with Collins off line right now to take you seriously.

Don't say $hit like this because your troll will follow suite.

 

 

 

VIN  protest and appeal, Collins 1, Drago the donut hole.        

[Bench Racer]

So people aren't cheating because of the VN on the firewall?

People can't run legal because of a VN?

People have to spend more time and $ for a VN?

 

No I'm not familar.

If it's an issue, it's an issue.

J~

How about if the next rule slide is for NA to have 99 front cross members. When's the last time you eyeballed for this when hoods have been open. Sliding rules do noone any good, they screw the class over. Hence, SSM at Summit and other places where from my reading things are a little tighter. Which makes a better class.

[Jim Drago]

Boy will this be a colossal waste if time and change no ones opinions..


Our GCR rule requires you have two or more matching vins, it doesn't say where, which etc, just two or more VINS.

We are not SS based ruleset anymore and we are not tied only to the FSM for definitions.. By Mikes definition the only valid vin is in the picture below, in the FSM. If you take that as fact, we are ALL NON COMPLIANT as we have only one valid VIN on each car, on the firewall. Nothing else would be acceptable, I don't buy that as 
anyone who can operate a car knows there are more than just that one location for the VIN. 

 

Here is the picture he is referring to:

The vin is not a "part" it is a number, VIN=Vehicle identification number . This picture points only to one instance of the VIN, not the only one, just points you to one of the many. 


 

 

If you look in the book further, you will find this :

This clearly points out the earth shattering news that other VIN plates do exist and where to find them.  Correct, we are not required to carry all these books, but if the common sense of a steward doesn't prevail before it even gets here,  this clearly points out that there are other places to look for numbers. Only in China would this not be accepted as fact.

 

While these pictures are in associated Mazda manuals, they will point you to VIN tags on the firewall, door jamb, engine, transmission and dash. There are no pretty pictures of them in this manual, but clearly referenced there are in other locations and do exist. I don't feel this even needs to be referenced as it is common  knowledge of every steward. 

By my count, there are at least six easily accessible VIN numbers on the Miata.  If any two of those numbers are the same, ( even if the rest are all different) lets say for the same 1997 Miata and EVERYTHING on your car meets the spec of those two VIN numbers, you will have no issue. PERIOD! Nor should anyone care to be honest as there is no advantage other than not having to spend twice the dollar amount.
 If you start mix and matching you will have issues and you should.

 
Mike will tell you he won a protest on this very issue, not exactly correct, I dont even think it was a protest, wasn't it just in tech?  The car in question was a full 1997 car running 1997 VIN numbers but logboooked as a 1994/95. They did this in order  to be able to run the larger plate of 94/95 spec line but keep the better fuel curve of the 1997 spec line.  IMO, that is not close to an apples to apples comparison here. That is a blatant cheat.

For the sake of cutting this short,( too late for that)

Mike and I both hate to lose and he will take the exact opposite position. All the smart people will agree with me for no other reason than Dewhurst  is on the other side with Mike and that can't be a good thing    None of this effects Mike or I, just arguing a point. Both of us agree if we wanted to do this tomorrow there would be no issue.

All said in fun.  BTW, I'm right and your wrong   

[Johnny D]

I was talking more of 94 to 97 slide, not that big.

I'm with you SSM.

Where to draw the line.

J~

[Mike Collins]

It was a CSA. It was not upheld. I appealed and won. They tried to use your logic with a trans vin tag and fender vin tag. I won on the firewall.

Sorry you lose.

[Bench Racer]

Boy will this be a colossal waste if time and change no ones opinions..

 

Correct, we are not required to carry all these books, but if the common sense of a steward doesn't prevail before it even gets here,  this clearly points out that there are other places to look for numbers. Only in China would this not be accepted as fact.

 

 

Mike and I both hate to lose and he will take the exact opposite position. All the smart people will agree with me for no other reason than Dewhurst  is on the other side with Mike and that can't be a good thing    None of this effects Mike or I, just arguing a point.

All said in fun.  BTW, I'm right and your wrong   

Were going to start this phase of the discussion real simple, having you hopefully understanding a basic GCR SMCS rule.

 

This will only be a colossal wast of time if your to bone headed to realize someone other than you understands the rules. More in a bit within this post for my first rule for you to understand that you have stated above you don't understand.

 

I don't ever look at a good discussion as a win at all costs including putting other people down. Dewhurst being on someones side is not always a bad thing, which you are about to find out.

 

Please open your GCR to SMCS 1st  (first) page. Read 9.1.8.C the second paragraph. Then please post the words of the rule to show me and anyone else that you now understand this basic rule.

 

With all do respect, after you understand the basic rule 9.1.8.C the second paragraph, the score/Drago opinion will be, Japan 1, China 1, Dewhurst 1, Drago 0 (zero).    

[Tom Sager]

The VIN thing screams for a better written rule.  Shouldn't even be a debate. For the sake of the stewards and competitors, this should be black and white.  Either it's OK to change the year of your car or it isn't.  Should not be allowed IMO.  The other thing to do is to fix the disparity between the '94 - '95 and '96 - '97 with a plate and/or weight adjustment.  

 

Both of these are simple changes and benefit the participants.  

[Tom Sager]

Were going to start this phase of the discussion real simple.

 

I don't ever look at a good discussion as a win at all costs including putting other people down.      

And we wonder why 535 members in the U.S. Congress can't come to any common sense conclusion to anything.  

[WilsonSteele]

All,

    Thanks for the wisdom and input, I mean that seriously.  Let's all remember not to get our feathers ruffled with our positions on this.

 

    I'm only half trying to continue to stir the pot here with this next bit, please take it for what it's worth.

 

    I'm a pretty handy guy with the dremel, tig welder, bondo and paint.  And the car might just be a stripped out shell right now.  If there happens to be damage to the firewall right where that VIN was, from say a bad engine fire, or it looks like someone cut the VIN out of the firewall and welded in a new one, then there's no protest to be had, correct?  Because the engine fire vs. welding might just look the same after someone might get done with it. 

 

    And it just so happens I forgot, and left the drivers door open in the sun for the last three years, and that sticker is faded all the way to blank.  Same as if someone rubbed it with alcohol.  But obviously it was the sun....

 

    If my car is perfectly compliant in every respect as a '97 to the VIN number "affixed" to the firewall, other than cosmetically right around the edges of said VIN, all is kosher to both sides of this argument?  And I can have other VINs lying around to assure that even more parts of my car are from '97 as well...

 

    Cause honestly, building a new car from a donor, or buying one, vs. a nice afternoon in the driveway with a car I already know/trust/like is just no comparison on labor, etc.  Especially with a long winter break coming up...

[Caveman-kwebb99]

No idea who you think you are???? But you cool as shi...t in my book!

[Michael Colangelo]

All,
    Thanks for the wisdom and input, I mean that seriously.  Let's all remember not to get our feathers ruffled with our positions on this.
 
    I'm only half trying to continue to stir the pot here with this next bit, please take it for what it's worth.
 
    I'm a pretty handy guy with the dremel, tig welder, bondo and paint.  And the car might just be a stripped out shell right now.  If there happens to be damage to the firewall right where that VIN was, from say a bad engine fire, or it looks like someone cut the VIN out of the firewall and welded in a new one, then there's no protest to be had, correct?  Because the engine fire vs. welding might just look the same after someone might get done with it. 
 
    And it just so happens I forgot, and left the drivers door open in the sun for the last three years, and that sticker is faded all the way to blank.  Same as if someone rubbed it with alcohol.  But obviously it was the sun....
 
    If my car is perfectly compliant in every respect as a '97 to the VIN number "affixed" to the firewall, other than cosmetically right around the edges of said VIN, all is kosher to both sides of this argument?  And I can have other VINs lying around to assure that even more parts of my car are from '97 as well...
 
    Cause honestly, building a new car from a donor, or buying one, vs. a nice afternoon in the driveway with a car I already know/trust/like is just no comparison on labor, etc.  Especially with a long winter break coming up...

I race a '95 SM. I never felt that 94-95 SMs were at a significant disadvantage compared to other SMs. Case in point: Rob Burgoon is one of the faster SM drivers in SoCal and he drives a '95. In my case, it's not the car holding me back, it's the loose nut behind the wheel.

Next on my to-do list is to get a driver coach.

[FTodaro]

Next on my to-do list is to get a driver coach.

That is a good idea. With all the talk on this board about how fast cars are in relationship to one another we spend no time on the topic about improving the drier.if you take this seriously and have not had some coaching your missing out.

[LarryKing]

VIN number protest and appeal, Collins 1, Drago the donut hole.

 

 It's VIN, not VIN number, (i.e. vehicle indentifcation number number)

 

Redundant grammar contest, Drago 0.5 (he started off well, then faded), Bench 0

 

And I mean that with all due respect.

[Jim Drago]

Read 9.1.8.C the second paragraph. Then please post the words of the rule to show me and anyone else that you now understand this basic rule.
 
With all do respect, after you understand the basic rule 9.1.8.C the second paragraph, the score/Drago opinion will be, Japan 1, China 1, Dewhurst 1, Drago 0 (zero).    

Here ya go..

9.1.8. Sports Racing Category Specifications
SRCS
Homologation is required on all ASR cars, except
1. Former Formula A (F-5000) cars registered as ASR cars before
January 1, 2003.
2. Cars conforming to the 1978-1984 Can-Am specifications,
with aerodynamic skirts removed, registered as ASR cars
before January 1, 2003.
3. ASR cars registered prior to January 1, 2003 which meet
the provisions of 9.1.8.A.1.n. These cars may be updated to
Section A.1.b-m specifications but they then shall meet all
requirements of Section A.1.b without exception, including
homologation.
Exceptions:
Exceptions to the ASR specifications must be requested with the homologation application and will be listed on the homologation certificate.
b. Chassis/Frame
Chassis/frame construction is unrestricted within the following limitations:
1. Chassis of non-metallic composite construction shall be proven
to meet FIA specifications for non-metallic composite chassis
prior to being submitted to the SCCA for homologation. Single
seat sports racers, up to 1300 lbs., shall meet the requirements listed in FIA article 258A or 275. All sports racers over
1300 lbs. shall meet the requirements of FIA article 258A only.
There are no exceptions. Contact SCCA National Office for a
list of the relevant FIA specifications/SCCA requirements.
2. Chassis of metallic tube and/or metallic monocoque construction shall be manufactured to be consistent with the safety
requirements outlined within these rules and the GCR.
c. Engines
Any engine(s) may be used within the following limitations:
1. Piston or rotary internal combustion, gasoline-fueled engines
only. No turbines. Turbo and/or supercharging is permitted.




I think that changes the score a little unless we are now talking about sports racers ? And I am not putting you down, just busting your chops

[WilsonSteele]

I don't think my car is at a significant disadvantage either. I am a mid to back pack racer in SoCal Nasa, which I'd like to think is a pretty competitive class.
I regularly race with several other '95s, '99s, and '90s in a pack i just cant break free of. Not any 97s in that pack that im aware of. Finishing within car lengths of each other at Autoclub speedway.

So lets put one in and see how different i can do, right?

I will be the first to admit that i spend more time improving the car than improving the driver. And i need to work on changing that.

But the OBD2 will give me throttle position in my data without spending more money on sensors, which could be a huge help. The motor is different, which might give better or equal performance with less time and money spent at the dyno since i cant afford the pro motor. The '97 motor and wiring harness is on hand in the garage right now.

To the point of burgoon in his '95, hes a better driver in a better car, and he's had a pro motor for several years and gotten used to it at all the tracks here. Maybe i can get a little more equal with a '97 car vs a '94 car, for neither having the pro motor.

[Ron Alan]

I don't think my car is at a significant disadvantage either. I am a mid to back pack racer in SoCal Nasa, which I'd like to think is a pretty competitive class.
I regularly race with several other '95s, '99s, and '90s in a pack i just cant break free of. Not any 97s in that pack that im aware of. Finishing within car lengths of each other at Autoclub speedway.

So lets put one in and see how different i can do, right?

I will be the first to admit that i spend more time improving the car than improving the driver. And i need to work on changing that.

But the OBD2 will give me throttle position in my data without spending more money on sensors, which could be a huge help. The motor is different, which might give better or equal performance with less time and money spent at the dyno since i cant afford the pro motor. The '97 motor and wiring harness is on hand in the garage right now.

To the point of burgoon in his '95, hes a better driver in a better car, and he's had a pro motor for several years and gotten used to it at all the tracks here. Maybe i can get a little more equal with a '97 car vs a '94 car, for neither having the pro motor.

I'm going to make some assumptions so I apologize in advance if I'm incorrect! I'm assuming you have been in the car for less than a year...and during that time you found this site, more recently likely. If you havent spent hours reading old threads then you havent found that the current mind set is the NA 1.8 is dead on arrival  Let me save you a LOT of time and headache with some information...some may disagree a little but for the most part this should be helpful...

 

1. You're chasing a dream if you think the 96-97 motor and OBD2 will make a significant difference. If this was true, it would be winning the runnoffs every year! Is it a good platform and competitive at a regional level...absolutely!! But guess what, so is your 94!!! And so is a 1.6 and a NB!

2. Assuming you are running your stock motor...best bang for your buck is a new(rebuilt)head and Adjustable fuel pressure($1500?). Key to power in these motors is loose bottom, tight top. Due make sure in this case your rings aren't completely gone! This is what we did after running the stock motor for a year(95 car). It bumped us to 117hp and 114ft lbs of torque(Thunderhill dyno in August!)...set 2 poles last year in SFR with these numbers(40+ car fields)! Are we the fastest...no way, but competitive for sure! 

3. Torque is your friend! Tune with this in mind! Unlike the 1.6, because all 1.8 motors are already limited by the RP, All the best flowing intake, exhaust items isn't quite as critical.

4. All that said,,,Driver, setup, drag, and tires is going to put you in the top 10...even 5 in most regions regardless of power(fair to average power). Good to great power with the previous mentioned items puts you in contention for the win!

 

If you don't already, spend as much time worrying about all the elements other than the engine and engine management!

 

And some one can correct me here if i'm wrong, but I believe your 97 motor is legal in your 94 with the correct plug in parts for the 94 harness! Block and head in other words.