46 replies to this topic

[Parity]

Looks to me like its 100 percent Locke's fault. According to a race monitor, both Paul and Mustafa were a full two seconds a lap faster than Locke in qualifying. You can see that Locke is clearly slower then them and there is a huge hole between Locke and Paul. Mustafa got almost a full car length ahead of Paul when the contact was made, so I disagree that they were "three wide" going into the bus stop. I'm not suggesting that this wreck was Paul's fault, but in hindsight, he should have tucked in behind Mustafa at this point and he and Mustafa would have easily passed Locke. But that's Monday morning quarterback and when you are racing, it's not so easy to always make good decisions.

In any event, Locke was too aggressive in pushing Mustafa to the outside and there was no need for it. As i said, Mustaf and Paul were a full two seconds a lap faster then Locke in the qualifying race and instead of acknowledging that and giving them room, he made an overly aggressive move to try and hold a position that he was going to eventually lose anyway. It was the first lap! Get out of the way of guys that are two seconds a lap faster then you.

If I am two seconds a lap slower then somebody, I want to run behind them in the hope of learning why they are two seconds a lap faster. Locke should have stayed where he was and let them by him.

While I appreciate everyone is entitled to their perspective, I disagree that I should have tucked in behind or did not make a "good decision" here. We were 3 wide on the back straight still accelerating, nowhere near the bus stop when contact occurred. I held my line and gave ample room for others. If everyone did that you can go 4 wide here. If the passing car had cleared or we were approaching the braking zone then I'd be tucking in, but not here. IMO this is over aggressive lap 1 driving. Yes, I'm aware even though I suffered the most damage, it's still an opinion.

[Yosh]

While I appreciate everyone is entitled to their perspective, I disagree that I should have tucked in behind or did not make a "good decision" here. We were 3 wide on the back straight still accelerating, nowhere near the bus stop when contact occurred. I held my line and gave ample room for others. If everyone did that you can go 4 wide here. If the passing car had cleared or we were approaching the braking zone then I'd be tucking in, but not here. IMO this is over aggressive lap 1 driving. Yes, I'm aware even though I suffered the most damage, it's still an opinion.

 

In my opinion, I don't see where you did anything wrong.  You had clearly caught Locke up the esses (to the point of having to breathe out of it) and at the top, he went right, you went straight.  If I were Mustafa I would have gone up the right instead of the middle, but it wasn't a horrible move given the amount of room.

[DrDomm]

Ok, I want to comment now that I've looked at those 2 videos some more.  I know Vick and Mustafa, but not Paul and Jimmy (raced him many times).  Clearly no one intentionally caused this.  We go 3 wide down the back straight all the time, and then figure something out by the busstop.  It can be done.  It has to be done.

 

My opinions of how things appear to unfold...Paul gets held up going up the esses, and moves to the left (car probably drifted that far wide).  Jimmy tried to block Mustafa on the inside (exactly what I would have done).  There's a gaping hole in the middle and Mustafa has a run (he has to go for it...we all would).  It looks like Mustafa's car is a bit unstable entering the gap between the 2 cars, but he tries to stay straight.  Jimmy wants to improve his angle entering the busstop, and squeezes to the middle, assuming Mustafa will give him room.  He initiated contact, and that's not right.  Still, it looked pretty gentle (at 105+mph).  But Mustafa's car seemed to dart left into Paul's.  I wonder if Mustafa gave a bit too much steering to the left to try to avoid that side by side contact with Jimmy.  I'd love to see in-car from Mustafa and Jimmy.

 

Anyway terrible outcome, especially for Paul.  Glad everyone is physically ok.  I hope everyone can learn from this.

 

(Vick, I won't be at the Fun One...leaving for Wisconsin that weekend.  But hopefully I can bring everything back in 1 piece for the Last Chance Enduro.  Pocono is likely next for me).

[DrDomm]

Here's a video from the Majors race 1 that I just uploaded showing the traffic that can squeeze down the back straight into the busstop...with a little patience.  I come to the top of the esses, and since I'm Italian express my displeasure with the ensuing congestion.  But it all works out.

 

http://youtu.be/c1IFwhdptIE

[edzeb]

First off, with my July Sprints Race Chair hat on: Thank you to all who attended the event. While SM/SM2/SSM/Etc was a little light, overall we had a great turnout. With my Driver's Helmet on, I was behind the incident in my H-Prod Spitfire and can say that everyone else in the group (as the hits where coming to a stop) did a good job at getting slowed down and driving through the incident. With the Chief Advisor to all SCCA Driving and Accredited Schools hat on, all I can say is 'racing room', 'racing room', 'Racing Room'. The reasons of why a driver moved here or there, or who had a run and who didn't, or etc, etc, etc are never really the main point. We must leave racing room. Recently I was asked to give input (from the perspective of heading up the Driver Schools) on a incident at a event where a faster car was passing a slower car as they approached a bridge. I was able to view three vids (one from each car and a car that was following). The faster car's LR wheel was a at the slower car's RF wheel and the slower car's driver turned right causing a classic PIT spin. The faster car impacted Driver's left and rolled, and flipped, and rolled, etc. When asked why he turned right into the other car and spun him, the driver of the slower car stated that he was taught to 'always stay on line when getting passed'. Seriously. Even if that meant turning into the passing car! So (to me) the 'reasons' for what a driver does in these incidents are not as important as the fact of what they actually did behind the wheel. As stated before, we SHALL leave racing room. Remember how many moves you are allowed to make? ONE. Any more than one is blocking. If that one move causes contact, then you did not leave racing room. As for my race on Sunday, all I did was kill a woodchuck. (thought of protesting him, but he was dead).

[mmcspecracer]

While I appreciate everyone is entitled to their perspective, I disagree that I should have tucked in behind or did not make a "good decision" here. We were 3 wide on the back straight still accelerating, nowhere near the bus stop when contact occurred. I held my line and gave ample room for others. If everyone did that you can go 4 wide here. If the passing car had cleared or we were approaching the braking zone then I'd be tucking in, but not here. IMO this is over aggressive lap 1 driving. Yes, I'm aware even though I suffered the most damage, it's still an opinion.

Paul, I think my post was misconstrued. In my opinion, you did nothing wrong. Locke didnt give racing room and had no business trying to pinch two cars that were clearly faster then him. I was merely suggesting that if you could do it all over again, you might want to consider tucking in behind Mustafa. thats it.It looks like he cleared you from the video but obviously you had a better vantage point. Having been wrecked myself by an overly agressive driver, I now subscribe to the theory that any move that keeps you and others from getting wrecked was the right move.  

[Steve D]

I think the car on the right squeezed left on purpose.  Rather than focusing on what happened on the straight, I think his biggest mistake was hugging the inside curbing in the prior corner, creating the large gap the middle car tried to fill.

 

If you're going to defend aggressively, defend EARLY and aggressively.  A half car width off the inside curbing would have sent a clearer message to the middle car, IMHO.

[Yosh]

I think his biggest mistake was hugging the inside curbing in the prior corner, creating the large gap the middle car tried to fill.

Yup.  I'm guessing he was trying to cover the inside run up to the inner loop.

 

I can make it!

http://www.liveleak....=38b_1374422427

[ner88]

I've watched this video several time....

At the point Mustafa put his nose into the gap, Jimmy is already most of a car width off the right side of the track.

Was he blocking, some want to believe...or moving over for the bus stop??

How would he know what Mustafa was doing if he was sitting in his blind spot.

As to turning in on him....I just don't see it...I see a reaction to the hit in the left rear.........

[edzeb]

There shall be no 'blind spots'.  Add more mirrors.  And situational awareness. 

(just my 2cents)...

[DonD]

Here it is from my camera.  I had a good view of a bad incident. 

I backed out of it.  Glad I did. 

Lucky nobody got hurt.  Paul's car looked bad. 

Sorry there is no sound.  Not sure why. 

 

Don

 

[DrDomm]

Wow!  From Don's video it looks like Mustafa's car veered sharply to the left from some "minor" contact.  (No contact is really minor at 100+mph, I guess)

 

Anyway, another video that shows that Paul was the victim.  Bummer.

[Parity]

@ Vicktor - I have to say you remained very calm and composed during an impressive pirouette

[svvs]

@ Vicktor - I have to say you remained very calm and composed during an impressive pirouette

I think one of the "Speed Secrets" in Ross Bentley's first book is "drive the car all the way through the crash" or something like that.  I was really just concentrating on keeping both feet in and waiting for what would come next.

[mmcspecracer]

From Don's video you can see that Paul could not even tuck in behind Mustafa as it looks like Victor and Don were there. So my Monday morning quarterback suggestion that Paul could try and tuck in the next time such a situation arises was dead wrong. Very unfortunate incident and had Locke given racing room, there would not have been a wreck.

[svvs]

Was just reviewing my video from the SM2 race start.  What happened a bit further back in the field? (look in my rearview).

 

[TJKearney]

Im just downloading my video now.  I was driven into the grass not twice (as I remembered after the race), but three times on lap 1 by the same car.  My sunday vid also captures the PITT maneuver you see in your rearview.  I'll see if I can edit and post it.  I believe they are SSM 4th taking out SSM 3rd (looks like black/red went 4 wheels off (over the turtles) and spun white/green SSM 2nd coming back onto the track.

[svvs]

I thought it looked like the white car pushed the red and black car over, and then spun himself across the red car's nose.  Rearviews are hard to read though.

 

TJ I know I owe you a note back.  By the way want to sell any more pro race 2's?  I need another one

[Yosh]

Rearviews are hard to read.  That said, I concur - looks like the white car got over too far and then ended up with nowhere to go. 

 

BTW, I need at least one, if not two ProRace 2's as well!
 

[TJKearney]

Vick and Yosh you guys could be correct.  My view is off to the side and cant tell if it was caused by white car tracking out, or red/black coming back on.  I retract :-)   And after the slipping Hoosiers issues I had that weekend the TD PR2's I still have rains on may come back into dry weather service (even though the concensus is it isnt the wheels).  No worries with the reply Vick.