140 replies to this topic

[Muda]

In the NE $60k is the new $40K.  And they're selling like hotcakes.

Same speeds in the corners.

Funny thing is that the Regional cars are faster than the National ones.

What's wrong with that picture?

[Brian Ghidinelli]

You could also do a Spec ECU across all generations like MegaSquirt.  Or allow 'forward' dating of engines and subframes settling on a common engine and chassis.  None of this is cheap or easy.

 

I'm NOT suggesting $1000 ECUs like the Megasquirt.  Rather, what we discussed here:

 

http://forum.specmia...9/3.html#000107

 

Drago said:

"I have talked to Joe Mccloughan several times about this and he wants to provide a spec sealed box, that may be something we look into when it becomes cheaper to stop fighting. The price is very reasonable.( about $175, but I think we can get done for $150) It may be something we put out for input at some point."

 

FP and timing have mostly mitigated the ECU cheating but we could look at a spec ECU for 99+ as a way of achieving even closer parity.  Again, I personally think we're really, really close but certainly if the 99 had a little less torque and a little more top end, it would be even closer.

 

I consider < $200 about as cheap as it gets.  Hell, on the new "standard" $60k miata, that's just 0.3%! 

[Adax]

This thread is finally getting to the point. To summarize:

 

6. Which brings us to the final point - money can buy a great car, and it can buy a crew and even a coach, but, in the end, acquiring the skills it takes to run at the front in SM takes a huge investment of time and effort by the driver.

 

It's down to the driver.

 

Great post skip, but what everyone has failed to mention is that it probably cost more to improve the driver than the car. Think about how much you spent on your driving skills and the cost of gaining a second a lap with a bigger motor seems pretty small.

 

Moving forward in the pack costs money, you can spend it on driver first, or car first, but to move into the top 25% I reckon you must spend it on both.

 

Like you, i invested in myself for the first 5 years, and in the car his year. Hard to say which order is better.

 

AC

[pat slattery]

you can build in now in your garage just as super sweet as buying it pro built!
 

I removed the video  as Kyle knew I would! Jim

You must have gotten your hand slapped by Drago.

[pat slattery]

6 pages in and no one has mentioned how incredibly disguised this parity thread is...Masterful Pat!

 

And for Dave...sorry man, torque is expensive

THANK YOU!!!!

[Brocodile]

Great post skip, but what everyone has failed to mention is that it probably cost more to improve the driver than the car. Think about how much you spent on your driving skills and the cost of gaining a second a lap with a bigger motor seems pretty small.

 

Moving forward in the pack costs money, you can spend it on driver first, or car first, but to move into the top 25% I reckon you must spend it on both.

 

Like you, i invested in myself for the first 5 years, and in the car his year. Hard to say which order is better.

 

AC

Good point, Alan. Track time is expensive, and there's no substitute for developing skills, but my point is that driving around the circuit fulminating about how slow your car is wastes time and money. Moreover, in addition to the track time, it's necessary to work on your game away from the track - data analysis, watching videos, reading, talking with (and listening to) other drivers, spending time on iRacing, and simply visualizing the course where you'll be racing next. Those things don't cost much in hard dollars, but they have a price in terms of time. Personally, I think it's better to do the hard work of developing skills in a cheaper car first, and once the learning curve levels off, reward yourself with a better car. Apparently, you agree.

 

And speaking of better cars, anyone reading this should click on Alan's link to his build blog. There you will see an amazing example of what can be done in a basement by someone who has the requisite mechanical skills and is willing to devote the time necessary to apply them. Alan's build is better than pro quality in terms of finish and detail. Although he farmed out the engine and paint, he will be out of pocket far less than for a pro build, with detail touches that are over the top. Still, it won't be cheap and, lest his wife be lurking on this forum, I won't ask him to reveal the total.

 

I don't think I would have powder-coated those control arms, though: bad ju-ju.

[Rob Burgoon]

True. 10 race weekends on a moderate tire budget might cost around $15K.  A great car costs two seasons of racing.

[Michael Colangelo]

True. 10 race weekends on a moderate tire budget might cost around $15K.

This should be our next complaint topic!

Dude, who stole my shaved Toyo RA1 that was good for 30+ competitive heat cycles?!

[Ron Alan]

THANK YOU!!!!

Your welcome   

 

In the NE $60k is the new $40K.  And they're selling like hotcakes.

Same speeds in the corners.

Funny thing is that the Regional cars are faster than the National ones.

What's wrong with that picture?

Ahmmmm...no Tech???    

 

 Moreover, in addition to the track time, it's necessary to work on your game away from the track - data analysis, watching videos, reading, talking with (and listening to) other drivers, spending time on iRacing, and simply visualizing the course where you'll be racing next. Those things don't cost much in hard dollars, but they have a price in terms of time. 

Calling Danny Steyn   

[Keith Novak]

Personally, I think it's better to do the hard work of developing skills in a cheaper car first, and once the learning curve levels off, reward yourself with a better car. Apparently, you agree.

If I had started out with the better car the fenders still wouldn't match now, the suspension would have been replaced with less bent parts regardless, the engine would have been replaced a couple times over with fewer gaping holes in the block... 

[Muda]

Personally, I think it's better to do the hard work of developing skills in a cheaper car first, and once the learning curve levels off, reward yourself with a better car. Apparently, you agree.

 

 

 

That's the way I did it and it works.  Could have bought a really nice car with the money I spent on coaching.  But I wouldn't be going faster.  Still, I really miss that 1.6.  Much more fun to drive.

[svvs]

That's the way I did it and it works.  Could have bought a really nice car with the money I spent on coaching.  But I wouldn't be going faster.  Still, I really miss that 1.6.  Much more fun to drive.

1.6L forever Muda, 1.6L forever.

 

Also...spending $$ on coaching will have much faster results than spending $$ on car.  You need to have all the skills to take advantage of a no nonsense build.

 

At the end of the day, this is still a driver's class.  In any car, you can get into the head of the guy in front of you if he isn't a driver.

 

-Vick

[Zauskycop]

I'm NOT suggesting $1000 ECUs like the Megasquirt.  Rather, what we discussed here:

 

http://forum.specmia...9/3.html#000107

 

Drago said:

"I have talked to Joe Mccloughan several times about this and he wants to provide a spec sealed box, that may be something we look into when it becomes cheaper to stop fighting. The price is very reasonable.( about $175, but I think we can get done for $150) It may be something we put out for input at some point."

 

FP and timing have mostly mitigated the ECU cheating but we could look at a spec ECU for 99+ as a way of achieving even closer parity.  Again, I personally think we're really, really close but certainly if the 99 had a little less torque and a little more top end, it would be even closer.

 

I consider < $200 about as cheap as it gets.  Hell, on the new "standard" $60k miata, that's just 0.3%! 

I have said this before, and I say it again.  I back this 100%.   Let's spec out an aftermarket ECU that can't be flashed.   Good for everyone, and the cost is barely more than one flat spotted Hoosier

[Todd Lamb]

In the NE $60k is the new $40K.  And they're selling like hotcakes.

Same speeds in the corners.

Funny thing is that the Regional cars are faster than the National ones.

What's wrong with that picture?

 

Same as it ever was - regional builds that would never pass national tech. Sad but true reality of SM, or more to the point, of some competitors.

 

 

1.6L forever Muda, 1.6L forever.

 

Also...spending $$ on coaching will have much faster results than spending $$ on car.  You need to have all the skills to take advantage of a no nonsense build.

 

At the end of the day, this is still a driver's class.  In any car, you can get into the head of the guy in front of you if he isn't a driver.

 

-Vick

Agreed! Compared to the cost of buying faster parts, the cost of coaching is a much better value, with long lasting results.

[Waterboy]

Agreed! Compared to the cost of buying faster parts, the cost of coaching is a much better value, with long lasting results.

There we go, another example of someone doing/saying something for their own benefit.

 

[Craig Berry]

There we go, another example of someone doing/saying something for their own benefit.
 

Just a question....but because someone benefits from helping another does that make it wrong? I have an opinion but that does not make it right. We have to get parts somewhere, why not a guy, company, or team who knows Spec Miata and not just a parts yard?.... some drivers may need help driving, why not from a proven winner? I dont know, I may be missing the boat, but if someone has to benefit at my expense I will try to make a smart decision.
I also do not know how rich these guys are getting from Spec Miata??? My guess is, I hope its a passion and not a necessity.

[Waterboy]

Just a question....but because someone benefits from helping another does that make it wrong? I have an opinion but that does not make it right. We have to get parts somewhere, why not a guy, company, or team who knows Spec Miata and not just a parts yard?.... some drivers may need help driving, why not from a proven winner? I dont know, I may be missing the boat, but if someone has to benefit at my expense I will try to make a smart decision.
I also do not know how rich these guys are getting from Spec Miata??? My guess is, I hope its a passion and not a necessity.

You missed my sarcasm.

Thanks to whoever inserted that smiley for me.

[Craig Berry]

I gotta have the smileys! I missed it. I guess the whole thread is sarcastic?? Anyway, thanks for clueing me in

[Todd Lamb]

There we go, another example of someone doing/saying something for their own benefit.

 

 

I know you've been paying attention on track - haven't you been getting coaching from me all season?

[davew]

Back in the old days I worked on Formula cars. I had a Runoffs winner tell me had a pretty good Runoffs motor. But it was an average National motor, a weak Regional motor and an un-competitive Midwestern Council motor.

 

Yesterday at Blackhawk we ran a just for fun 1 hour enduro. I had 2 drivers entered and had the faster one do some experimenting.

 

For 10 laps I had him run an enduro pace. This set our baseline. Brake a little easier, a little less slidding around, at normal shift points. He was super consistent and only 1 second slower than his race pace of a few hours ago.

 

For the next 10 laps he  drove the same, but shifted at 6500 instead of +/- 7000. In reality he lost about 8 horsepower. Lap times became inconsistent, but his fastest lap at 6500 was faster than his fastest lap at 7000

 

The next 10 laps we went back to 6000 rpm shift points. Loosing another 8 horsepower. Lap times went up about 3/4 of a second from the baseline.

 

With time running out we went back to the baseline driving for 6 laps. Times where consistent with the first set of laps.

 

For the last few laps I told him to run qualifying pass. Last lap of the race was his fastest lap of the weekend. One second faster than the baseline laps.

 

The car is a nice 1.6 with about 4 seasons on the Stewart motor. Tires where new Saturday morning with 2 qualifiers and 2 races before the enduro started.

 

My conclusions:

Making the engine worse with the 6500 lower shift points made the car only a little slower.

Making the car a lot worse with the 6000 was a noticable change.

Making the driver better, by going from endurance mode to qualifying mode, made a bigger  difference than the engine power. I include a proper handling car as a form of driver improvement.

 

Summary:

Improving the driver will get you more benefits than improving the engine.

 

Thais all

Dave