140 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

This thread is finally getting to the point. To summarize:

 

1. The picture is much larger than hp and tq.

 

2. From a mechanical standpoint, it's a holistic thing - it's about the whole car. A simple dragging caliper can invisibly negate all that expensive hp. A poor setup can delay you from getting back to throttle out of a critical corner by a precious tenth or two, again negating the benefit of a monster motor. Neglected maintenance can result in broken belts and leaking hoses, resulting in DNF's or worse. The list is almost endless.

 

 

3. Fundamentally, building a car, maintaining it and prepping it is not about money: it's about time and knowledge. If you have the time and the know-how (oh, and a body shop, mechanical shop, machine shop and a few hundred pounds of tools), you can build a front running national-level SM for less than half the cost of a the best pro-built car. If you have to farm out the motor and trans, the savings are less, but still substantial.

 

4. For those of us who lack the time and/or knowledge, money is the only alternative. Fortunately there are people who know what they are doing  who are willing to spend the time necessary to build an engine, a trans, a cage, or an entire car in exchange for money. This allows a great many more people to successfully compete in SM than if everybody had to do their own work. Hooray for free enterprise. Unfortunately, for those who have neither time, nor knowledge, nor money, driving a top-level SM is pretty well out of reach unless you have a really, really good friend. But take heart - for most drivers, it wouldn't make much difference anyway. See (5), below.

 

5. In the end, it comes down to the driver. At some point, time and money spent on car build and prep runs up against the law of diminishing returns. Beyond that point, the driver is better off working on himself rather than the car. For the vast majority of drivers, that point is well short of $40,000.

 

6. Which brings us to the final point - money can buy a great car, and it can buy a crew and even a coach, but, in the end, acquiring the skills it takes to run at the front in SM takes a huge investment of time and effort by the driver. It also requires the driver to look at himself first when searching for speed. Blaming the car is a fatal trap. When I first began racing, I didn't own a car. Instead, I drove Tom Fowler's rentals. I knew Tom's cars were quick because, on test days, he would put down laps so I could use the data for comparison. It was humbling. For two full seasons, each time I came in from a test, qualifier or race, the crew would ask me, "How was the car?" My standard answer was, "Still faster than I am. Don't change a thing."  Only when I felt I had fully mastered the basics of car control did I begin experimenting with setup. Once I was convinced I had fully exploited the potential of the rental cars, I had Tom build a car for me. It's a top build and I won a regional championship in it...but I haven't come close to a podium in a Majors. We'll keep working on the car, but it's already good enough that I doubt there's much more speed to be found there.

 

It's down to the driver.

Great post Skip, spelled out completely and very accurately

[AW33COM]

On another hand if you can do everything yourself the tag for a 99 is $26,000.  Still not bad.

 

$7500    pro motor
$750    pro tranny
$300    clutch/plate
$2000    donor
$500    top
$2000    cage
$1000    seat
$500    safety
$400    steering wheel
$750    pro diff
$2000    paint + graphics
$800    tires
$500    rims
$500    brakes
$500    radiator
$300    exhaust
$500    4 hubs
$500    radio
$2000    suspension
$1500    track dash
$800    2 gopros

$1000 cables and electrical

 

About $26000 total.

I did not count wishbones and subframes as that can be checked, and most of the time they are good.

[Johnny D]

 
The phrase 'argy-bargy' means a heated discussion, perhaps one that has become bad-tempered enough to amount to a spat or minor quarrel.

 

Off Topic but..

It could be this too.

 

[Ron Alan]

6 pages in and no one has mentioned how incredibly disguised this parity thread is...Masterful Pat!

 

And for Dave...sorry man, torque is expensive

[Sean - MiataCage]

Labor is not free.....  If it's from a shop, junk yard guy or individual building it in his/her garage.  

 

Those of you that think your labor is free and costs you nothing are not comparing apples to apples when looking at builds from shops that do it for a living.  While it may not be your profession it is presumably still time away from the dog, family, friends, basket weaving class, other businesses etc.  If you start to allocate for your time you will see the 15K SpecMiata (build) is about as common as the Unicorn.  

 

As it has been said already many times in this thread at the end of the day you need to prep the car and god forbid drive the car regardless of the price.   Otherwise you are just a DE day Hero winning the 9:00am to 9:25am Orange group session driving flat out.

 

Sean

[FTodaro]

This thread is finally getting to the point. To summarize:
 
1. The picture is much larger than hp and tq.
 
2. From a mechanical standpoint, it's a holistic thing - it's about the whole car. A simple dragging caliper can invisibly negate all that expensive hp. A poor setup can delay you from getting back to throttle out of a critical corner by a precious tenth or two, again negating the benefit of a monster motor. Neglected maintenance can result in broken belts and leaking hoses, resulting in DNF's or worse. The list is almost endless.
 
 
3. Fundamentally, building a car, maintaining it and prepping it is not about money: it's about time and knowledge. If you have the time and the know-how (oh, and a body shop, mechanical shop, machine shop and a few hundred pounds of tools), you can build a front running national-level SM for less than half the cost of a the best pro-built car. If you have to farm out the motor and trans, the savings are less, but still substantial.
 
4. For those of us who lack the time and/or knowledge, money is the only alternative. Fortunately there are people who know what they are doing  who are willing to spend the time necessary to build an engine, a trans, a cage, or an entire car in exchange for money. This allows a great many more people to successfully compete in SM than if everybody had to do their own work. Hooray for free enterprise. Unfortunately, for those who have neither time, nor knowledge, nor money, driving a top-level SM is pretty well out of reach unless you have a really, really good friend. But take heart - for most drivers, it wouldn't make much difference anyway. See (5), below.
 
5. In the end, it comes down to the driver. At some point, time and money spent on car build and prep runs up against the law of diminishing returns. Beyond that point, the driver is better off working on himself rather than the car. For the vast majority of drivers, that point is well short of $40,000.
 
6. Which brings us to the final point - money can buy a great car, and it can buy a crew and even a coach, but, in the end, acquiring the skills it takes to run at the front in SM takes a huge investment of time and effort by the driver. It also requires the driver to look at himself first when searching for speed. Blaming the car is a fatal trap. When I first began racing, I didn't own a car. Instead, I drove Tom Fowler's rentals. I knew Tom's cars were quick because, on test days, he would put down laps so I could use the data for comparison. It was humbling. For two full seasons, each time I came in from a test, qualifier or race, the crew would ask me, "How was the car?" My standard answer was, "Still faster than I am. Don't change a thing."  Only when I felt I had fully mastered the basics of car control did I begin experimenting with setup. Once I was convinced I had fully exploited the potential of the rental cars, I had Tom build a car for me. It's a top build and I won a regional championship in it...but I haven't come close to a podium in a Majors. We'll keep working on the car, but it's already good enough that I doubt there's much more speed to be found there.
 
It's down to the driver.

Skip could you post on the next parity tread too?
Good summation.

[LarryKing]

$750    pro tranny
$2000    pain + graphics

 

$750 for a pro tranny?

$2000 for pain + graphics???

Hey, whatever flips your trigger.

 

Seriously - can one of the experts discribe to us what a pro transmission is. (Last time I looked the GCR doesn't say you can do anything to the trans)

[LarryKing]

6 pages in...

 

Have we decided - are $40K++ SMs good or bad?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

6 pages in...

 

Have we decided - are $40K++ SMs good or bad?

 

Thats easy!!!!!  GOOD FOR KWEBB, bad for rgbragy or whatever name you will go by next LOL

[LarryKing]

R. Geoffrey Bargy, III, has spent all he is ever going to spend on upgrades and will whirl a turd for another year or two until he decides he has had enough "fun".

 

So not really "bad" for Bargy.

 

Mrs. Bargy decided this year that her fun balloon has completely deflated and is finito - which in turn kinda pricks R.G.'s balloon.

 

Spend at will.

[AW33COM]

$750 for a pro tranny?

 

 

$100-150 for the transmission off Craigslist and parts for about $600.  Pro as it gets for that money.

 

And one more thing, 40k cars and history matter more when it's time to sell, but otherwise it's the "skills" of the driver I was always told   Truth must be somewhere in the middle.

[Jamz14]

When I was 16 I was sure that I knew everything. Then I turned 18 and thought what a dunce I was at 16 because now I know everything. That idea lasted til I was 30 when I knew what I did and didn't know. Now I am almost 50 and realize I don't know anything and I like it that way.

 

My car prep is following the same path. Every time I think I know what I am doing, I learn that I don't know the half of it. I think I am at the 18-30yr old stage of building. I am looking forward to the 50 yr old stage.

 

I almost forgot the point of the thread............I absolutely know you can build a great home garage car for 25K and it will take you right to the front.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

When I was 16 I was sure that I knew everything. Then I turned 18 and thought what a dunce I was at 16 because now I know everything. That idea lasted til I was 30 when I knew what I did and didn't know. Now I am almost 50 and realize I don't know anything and I like it that way.

 

My car prep is following the same path. Every time I think I know what I am doing, I learn that I don't know the half of it. I think I am at the 18-30yr old stage of building. I am looking forward to the 50 yr old stage.

 

I almost forgot the point of the thread............I absolutely know you can build a great home garage car for 25K and it will take you right to the front.

 

Not if you cant drive for shits!  You can buy a 50k car and not get to front... I have seen plenty good cars at the back of the field 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

you can build in now in your garage just as super sweet as buying it pro built!
 

urgh!

[pat slattery]

Is that a throw in for those 40K+ cars

[Caveman-kwebb99]

its for the poor lowly 1.6 guys to give them a boost in torq...

 

Dr. dehorts in Wi. is working up the torq curve and will post later. 

 

The california Monkey man can use them in place of his competition cam idea for the 1.6

[Jamz14]

Not if you cant drive for shits!  You can buy a 50k car and not get to front... I have seen plenty good cars at the back of the field 

The subtlety and sarcasm of my comment was lost on the caveman???

[Jim Drago]

I am not a 1.6 forever because I want to, I don't have the  40K to get a 99 and can't get much out of the 1.6 car I have even though it has been a good car.  We won GLD Nationals  2 years ago, highest finishing 1.6 at the runoffs, every year we entered, finished 37th in points this year after only racing 4 races, finished 11th in 2012 with 1 race short of maxing our points.  I think my driver has the respect of the people we race with.

Suppose every car 94 and newer disappeared tomorrow from SM, How would you stop 40k 1.6 cars from being the norm? How did the "powers that be" create this situation? What rules do we need to change in order to keep the cars under 15-20k?

[Brian Ghidinelli]

I believe this is technically possible... I'll leave it to others to debate the merits.  Can we:

 

Mandate a spec SCCA flashed ECU for the 99+ that makes the curve more closely match the shape of the earlier cars?  That would mean both less torque down low AND more HP at the top end.

 

Having an official SCCA flash would solve ECU cheating too - if your program doesn't match, you're DQd.

 

Secondarily, could we take away fuel and timing and actually be ahead $-wise for new builds?

[Alberto]

I believe this is technically possible... I'll leave it to others to debate the merits.  Can we:

 

Mandate a spec SCCA flashed ECU for the 99+ that makes the curve more closely match the shape of the earlier cars?  That would mean both less torque down low AND more HP at the top end.

 

Having an official SCCA flash would solve ECU cheating too - if your program doesn't match, you're DQd.

 

Secondarily, could we take away fuel and timing and actually be ahead $-wise for new builds?

 

You could also do a Spec ECU across all generations like MegaSquirt.  Or allow 'forward' dating of engines and subframes settling on a common engine and chassis.  None of this is cheap or easy.