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Results of new NASA spec for '99 SM's - DATA

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#401
Alberto

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Some quick calculations..
Current SCCA rules on 90-95% fully prepped cars, very good National cars but certainly not best.


01/05 125/120 20.0 lbs/P
99/00 128/117 20.0 lbs/P
94/97 124/114 19.87 lbs/P
90/93 123/105 19.95 lbs/P

If you add hp+Tq= power number(P) look at the p/lb ratios..


Under current NASA rules, same prep I came up with...

01/05 haven't tested with smaller plate yet
99/00 122/112 20.42 lbs/P
94/97 123/112 19.91 lbs/P
90/93 123/105 19.95 lbs/P

If there is a problem with NASA rules is the 99 is just too heavy for that plate or too small of a plate for that weight..

If there is a problem with SCCA rules is that the weight disparity is too large.. While the power numbers are very close, on small tight tracks the 1.6 pulls out, on long tracks, the weight doesn't hurt as much, the 99 pulls out.. Leaving the 1.8 car good in both types, but rarely the best anywhere.

Jim



Hmmm....

You are using 123 HP for the 90-93 1.6 so that assumes a pro-motor to achieve parity.
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#402
Johnny D

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Maybe it would be good for SCCA/NASA to release why they make the change they did or didn't.
Maybe not.

It's very difficult to make everyone happy.
Handling/Horsepower track throughout the country.
Some regions favoring SCCA over NASA or other way.
What's good for national, good for regional?
They say the true result is from the runoffs but is it really?
Do they look at parity with in there region.
Will they hold/lose/attract drivers to the other sanction?
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#403
Danny Steyn

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Who cares. Runoffs at Road America doesn't have anything to do with the majority of the class. How many SM's are going to be at the runoffs compared to how many SM's race all year long at other events. Since I don't have any idea what your math skills are let says there are 60 SM's at the runoffs, and let's say there are 1,000 SM's (number is much higher i believe) that run the rest of the year. You want to change the rules for the 6%, really? That's just stupid. The runoffs at Road America doesn't mean sh.. to the majority of the racers. Your argument is old.


In National competition this year there were 1283 Spec Miata drivers competing in 72 races around the country. Not sure about the regional race numbers

http://www.scca.com/...ation-FINAL.pdf

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#404
James York

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Hmmm....

You are using 123 HP for the 90-93 1.6 so that assumes a pro-motor to achieve parity.


You have to base all equalizations on top prep cars. Otherwise all car models could argue their number. Not all 99s or 94s make the numbers listed above either.

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#405
Jim Drago

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They say the true result is from the runoffs but is it really?



Who is they? :blink: That is not how parity adjustments are made in SCCA, it is based on the entire season. That is what member input wanted specifically. Most don't care about the Runoffs, they want even racing all year long.

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#406
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Hmmm....

You are using 123 HP for the 90-93 1.6 so that assumes a pro-motor to achieve parity.



Well my 99 pro motor makes 122 in NASA trim and I weight a hell of alot more than a 1.6 with an overweight driver. Hmmm. figures seem right to me! Also Hmmm wasnt the 99 slowed down because they all had pro motors? I dont believe you can achieve parity from putting junk yard motors in all the models for parity power/lb testing.

For everyone who doesnt have a pro motor in their 99, they got hosed by the new NASA rules because of those who did have the pro motor, why should it be any different for a 1.6 or a 1.8? Testing should be done with off the shelf well preped pro motors, otherwise the parity would be horrible once someone developed one model more than another. That is why they have rules changes.

Just my two cents!

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#407
Tom Sager

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Jim I could not agree more, there is no scientific value to comparing lap times in a race to determine parity. To many variables none of which deal directly with the ability of the car. However the issue of hp/tq to wt is the issue. My 2 cents, the plate need to go to a 39mm at the current wt, and it will be a good compromise. is that horse dead yet.


Well that depends. What happens on the track is the validation (or not) of parity, right? If we're going to make adjustments only in "the lab", then we need good and complete data for the project. I think the power numbers Jim has published look like good representations of good cars. However, we need a lot more information if all we're using is "lab data". We'll need areodynamic data and factors that take into account the handling variances in the cars since the cars have differences in weight, distribution, center of gravity, sway bars, track width and geometry.

As for 39mm, I assume you're speaking in terms of NASA weights? If so then you're suggesting that we give the '99 the most power (slightly), the best chassis and the best aero package in exchange for a 50 pound penalty over the next closest car and a 100 pound penalty over the least powered car (torque + HP). My hunch is that NASA will look at that a come to another conclusion.

A lot can be learned through the windshield and the rear view mirror. I learned this past weekend that a top prepped '99 at 37mm goes down the straights at Mid-Ohio every bit as good as my 1.8 car (which is no slouch).
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#408
Johnny D

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Who is they? :blink: That is not how parity adjustments are made in SCCA, it is based on the entire season. That is what member input wanted specifically. Most don't care about the Runoffs, they want even racing all year long.

Good to know, keep me on the straight and narrow.

I guess I was under the impression that at least NASA was going to be looking at the runoffs before any/no 99 RP changes would be made, but that's also a good way to keep people off your back for most of the season.
But I've been wrong before.
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#409
William Keeling

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I have a motor built to the head rules -- 118hps -- so the head rules brought pro motors in line with local shop builds?

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#410
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What some of you don't realize, or think about, is the fact that there are those of us who don't run the Runoffs, but run at Road America 3, 4, or 5 times a year. That is 3, 4 or 5 times a year I see the 99's walk away from me! It isn't "just one race" we are adjusting to. It sure would be nice to help the regional drivers also!
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#411
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Who cares. Runoffs at Road America doesn't have anything to do with the majority of the class. How many SM's are going to be at the runoffs compared to how many SM's race all year long at other events. Since I don't have any idea what your math skills are let says there are 60 SM's at the runoffs, and let's say there are 1,000 SM's (number is much higher i believe) that run the rest of the year. You want to change the rules for the 6%, really? That's just stupid. The runoffs at Road America doesn't mean sh.. to the majority of the racers. Your argument is old.


Stupid (your word) is you question someone's grade school math skills. Including the Runoffs/national/regional races we in the CenDiv have a total IIRC of 7 races at Road America a year. Yes it matters to many of us in the CenDiv. If you had a 1.6 & raced in the CenDiv you also would care.

Let's go back to this from my previous post which you paid no attention to.

***What's the cure so there's parity for all models at the Runoffs (EDIT: include nationals/regionals) at Road America. Think outside the SCCA box please. :D ***

For grins let's say the CRB is in agreement that the 1.6 is getting hosed at Road America. Let's also agree that the CRB is going to reduce the 99 restrictor by 1mm because all their data from Road America indicates this would improve parity at Road America. Cost would be $50.00 for a smaller restrictor plate. Everyone that's serious about racing does dyno work on a regular basis so that becomes $0.00. At other tracks put your 41mm restrictor plate back in.

After looking a second time I do understand you thoughts a bit better, you drive a 99. :o You'll also enjoy the fact that 68% of SM entries for the 2011 SCCA Runoffs are 99's.

Thank you Tracy, you get it. B)
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#412
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It sure would be nice to help the regional drivers also!


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#413
dstevens

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Could you please specify these changes for the 1.6.


Fuel pressure regulator and 99 suspension parts.

#414
Mike Lliteras

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I've only been involved with SM for a little less than 2 years, but I have come to my own conclusion that parity is temporary at best. The guys with the money and who spend the time on prep and dyno and training are going to screw up any attempts at parity. Look at Bolanos and Sparks, 99 for SCCA and a 94 & 90 for NASA. Hille beat Sparks in both NASA races at Rd Atl in June while running his 99. Sparks ran his 90 at VIR in July and beat Hille both times, one had extenuating weather issues. Both were running comprable times to winter SCCA race at RD Atl. They are both well prepped cars with top notch drivers. You know if SCCA made changes to make a less than front running 1.6 able to run with JD, Von Charb, Chip V, Danny Steyn and so on, they would start running 1.6's and be right up front again. Then there would be calls for parity for the 99s. In other words, as long as the front running, national guys, are all running the same car, it will always seem like that car has an advantage. There may be an advantage for the 99s, in flat Florida the 1.6s do pretty good. Is there anyone who was running a 1.6, and couldn't run up front, and switched to a 99 and now runs up front or wins against the top guys?

#415
Jim Boemler

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as long as the front running, national guys, are all running the same car, it will always seem like that car has an advantage.

There's a bit of chicken-and-egg going on here. The theory (I think with good historical background) is that when all the front-running guys are running the same car, it's precisely because it has an advantage. There are a lot of mid-packers like me who race what they have. But the front-runners often (not always) pick the car with a perceived advantage. When they pretty much all agree which car to drive, AND they pretty much win all the time, it's a clue for the rest of us.

In the past several years there seems to have been a mass exodus to the 99. I don't see any (not ONE, correct me if I'm wrong) winning 99 driver switching to an earlier car. Somehow that seems like a clue, doesn't it?

#416
Danny Steyn

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In the past several years there seems to have been a mass exodus to the 99. I don't see any (not ONE, correct me if I'm wrong) winning 99 driver switching to an earlier car. Somehow that seems like a clue, doesn't it?


Purely in the interests of continuing this thread - Stay tuned - watch the runoofs entries for 2011 !!!

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#417
Waterboy

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Let's go back to this from my previous post which you paid no attention to.

***What's the cure so there's parity for all models at the Runoffs (EDIT: include nationals/regionals) at Road America. Think outside the SCCA box please. :D ***

After looking a second time I do understand you thoughts a bit better, you drive a 99. :o You'll also enjoy the fact that 68% of SM entries for the 2011 SCCA Runoffs are 99's.

Thank you Tracy, you get it. B)


I paid very close attention to your previous post. It didn't include anything about nationals/regionals. It called for parity for all models at the Runoffs. Hence my post. Sorry you guys have to deal with parity in your reginal racing but that is not the case for the majority of the country. I can only speak for tracks I race at but at VIR, Summit Point, and New Jersey the cars are all pretty equal. That seems to be the sentiment for quite a lot of tracks thru out the country. So again adjusting parity for the entire class based on the results at one track, possibly two, makes zero sense. Perhaps for your regional racing you need to come up with another solution.

Also doesn't matter what year car I run. We have 1.6's, 99's, and 1.8's that are all fighting for the top 10 spots week in and week out at our races, which is what it should be. Now that you mention it though a 1.6 has won almost every race at my home track this year, I think we need a parity adjustment for the 99.
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#418
Jim Drago

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In the past several years there seems to have been a mass exodus to the 99. I don't see any (not ONE, correct me if I'm wrong) winning 99 driver switching to an earlier car. Somehow that seems like a clue, doesn't it?



One would be the NASA National champion this year, he has a very good 99, he parked it and raced a 1.6 and won? Not sure what parking his 99 at the NASA champs in favor of his 1.6 means, perhaps he wanted more of a challenge? I dont know :P I'm sure some of the smarter guys on here can explain it to us. :D



Is there anyone who was running a 1.6, and couldn't run up front, and switched to a 99 and now runs up front or wins against the top guys?


I don't know ANY who couldn't win in a well built 1.6 and then stepped in a 99 and started winning straight off. I am sure some stayed in the car a year or so and got better and started winning. Many buy a cheap 1.6 when they start, like the class etc, then spend money on a good 99 and do better. I'm not sure that is an accurate comparison? I do have a few examples of those who felt the 99 was the car to have, built it or rented it and went backwards though, does that count? :D.


The year of the car certainly matters, The sanctioning body and their rules certainly matter... In both sanctioning bodies right now.. There is the appearance that an average car of one version(any non 99 in NASA, 99 in SCCA)can beat the top prep cars of another version (99 in NASA and 1.6 in SCCA) Not saying I truly believe that, but perception becomes reality. IMO, an average car SHOULD NEVER beat a top flight car with comparable drivers, less some extenuating circumstances. That goes for any year car. If we can get rid of that perception, based on fact... the class will be better for all. Just my opinion.
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#419
Mike Lliteras

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In the past several years there seems to have been a mass exodus to the 99. I don't see any (not ONE, correct me if I'm wrong) winning 99 driver switching to an earlier car. Somehow that seems like a clue, doesn't it?

That's kind of my point Jim, there has been in NASA and if they hurt the 99 in SCCA, they might switch. The top drivers haven't switch backnij SCCA because they haven't hurt the 99. Sparks and Bolanos win in both Series, and others have stopped running NASA. I do agree it could be a chicken and the egg issue, I guess that's why there is 21 pages on this thread alone and probably hundreds in here.

#420
Mike Collins

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Jim, why lets the facts get in the way of another David Dewhurst rant. We all know he's right :lol:
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