448 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

Alex or anyone not bringing there 99 back.

Would you come back in your 99 if you had a 39mm RP?
J~

[5X Racing]

John, this isn't personal. I'm just correcting your synopsis of the weekend because I found it to be inconsistent with my findings. It's clear that you have an anti SCCA/anti top level prep attitude and you don't want to race against people that spend more time/money to prep their cars than you do (your words not mine).

P.S. I'm sorry that you didn't see the humor in Cliff's post race commentary, I'll see you with my '94 at the next one

Excuse me for sounding personal, but I did feel a bit shafted when I heard you didn't provide any data from our test we set up with you, and now hearing that you used the free race session which we fought with the regional executives to grant you, to run the 99 (Cliff's or yours, doesn't matter because they are clones) without any plate at all. What was the purpose of that? We could have used that data to help your gripe about the 99's being too slow in NASA trim.

I don't think my synopsis needed correcting. Peoples findings are of their own discoveries from their own results and performance, like: my "findings" from how my car stacked up against your car that weekend. I wasn't speaking for your findings and what you thought of the weekend, I was explaining how I felt the weekend went from the viewpoint of a 1.6 owner and how the 1.6 cars compared to a top prepped 99. Am I wrong because I think that? We all know how you thought of the weekend now, so there are your findings, they are what they are. We disagree, and I am fine with that. It's really no different than somebody writing a race report of their weekends activities and results, mine was on what I thought of the new rules in action, like it or not, wrong or right, that's what I thought.

Sorry to SCCA loyalists that I might have upset inadvertently that think I have an "anti SCCA" attitude, it's not that way at all, I could care less where anybody chooses to race. I haven't been as interested in racing SCCA SM for a while and may seem overly excited about NASA because I have a blast racing with them, get contingency money, am able to put my father in a better learning environment for his development, have more customers there, have more potential to advertise my brand and business there, and get free beer and pizza on saturday night, but I still hold an SCCA license and will race at the SCCA races that interest me or are held on tracks that NASA doesn't visit. Mc Donalds and Burger King man, I like them both for different reasons but am in no way "anti SCCA". It's a great club that provides a place for us do what we love to do, race funny little cars and waste money. If there wasn't an option, I'd be racing a full SCCA schedule.
As far as racing against people with more money... I am destined to be racing against people with more money for the rest of my racing career! I am in the wrong sport if I believe that statement (apparently out of my own mouth)! I spend all of my upgrade budget and dyno time money on building new parts for our website, our business, and buying $1500 miata's off of craigslist. It's no mystery to me why I can't spend the same amount of money on my rig as others. Hmm, I'd better start my own class or start racing chumpcar/LeMons stuff (not a bad idea, we should institute a build cap! break the cap and you get something welded to the hood of your car!) Of course I don't want to race against people that spend more time and money on their cars, cause I don't have either of it! Who does really? That's what's so fun about going to the kart track, everybody pays $20 and whoever drives the best (and is not the fattest) wins! As far as time goes for developing my car... I sure do wish I had more of it to develop my car, then I could run with you and the other big dogs at the SCCA races and not be so happy about NASA's new rules! Time is rare in my life, as it is in many others, I'm sure our customers would be pissed if I was wrenching on my car instead of filling their orders, I am sure NASA FL would be pissed if I spend even less time then I do already being their race director, and I am now sure this forum is taking way too much of it. I envy the people that have time in their lives.

It is what it is Alex. My opinion, your opinion, we all have them like Jim said. No point in having a good old fashioned Mexican standoff here on something you could probably care less about (and something I am increasingly caring less and less about), as your priority is SCCA racing (your words, not mine ). On that note, I will retire from this topic. My wife has called a publishing house and secured me a novel deal, so my writing time beckons elsewhere...

P.S. I didn't know Cliff was such a dry humored comedian. Could have fooled me (and did). Guess I missed the punchline. I do know one thing, he surely wasn't "driving around" on Sunday to give me the win. Next one's in May, see ya there!

(All: I promise all future opinionated responses shall be of 3 sentence maximums)

[5X Racing]

After that, I think I'm ready for this:

[Jim Drago]

John
Respectfully, I share Alex's opinion. I know the prep level of his car and his ability. I think a better test would be to swap cars if you two could agree, my guess is Alex gains at least .5 plus in your car ( or any comparably prepped 1.6 car driven by 95% of the SM community and you or 95% of the SM community loses .5 or better in his car? You may be the fastest driver in the country , I don't know. But because Alex can get close in an uncompetitive car is no surprise too many of us. But I think if you swapped cars, you would see what you really had, right or wrong.
In SCCA we even have parity at the 3/8 oval Cliff's 1.6 won one of the heat races at Lanier Speedway this weekend.

[5X Racing]

John
Respectfully, I share Alex's opinion. I know the prep level of his car and his ability. I think a better test would be to swap cars if you two could agree, my guess is Alex gains at least .5 plus in your car ( or any comparably prepped 1.6 car driven by 95% of the SM community and you or 95% of the SM community loses .5 or better in his car? You may be the fastest driver in the country , I don't know. But because Alex can get close in an uncompetitive car is no surprise too many of us. But I think if you swapped cars, you would see what you really had, right or wrong.
In SCCA we even have parity at the 3/8 oval Cliff's 1.6 won one of the heat races at Lanier Speedway this weekend.

Jim,

I'd love to have a go in his car, I agree it would be a good comparison test if we had ample practice time (I've never driven a 99 SM), with the suspension setup to our styles, but I can't afford to pay Alex for his car if I wreck it! Not sure he'd be willing to take my car (or give his) on a collateral deal. And the other way around, if he were to damage my car, it would be a gentlemans agreement to pay for the repairs. Not to mention it would put me out of the season if I lost my car. If there is a way to work out those finite details, then sure! But 0.5 seconds is a tough call to make determinations on both of our times, temperature effects our lap times greater than that down here, especially Miami in May.

I am 6'2 and 200 lbs, I don't fit well in cars built for guys the size of Alex. But hey, if possible, then I'll give it a go for sure. How about the May NASA Homestead event?

I saw that Lanier Speedway thing on youtube, I'd love to participate in that deal!

[5X Racing]

For anybody that hasn't seen this already, this is what Jim is talking about:

SM racing at Lanier circle track

[Lee Tilton]

For anybody that hasn't seen this already, this is what Jim is talking about:

SM racing at Lanier circle track

As an ex-dirt track driver, that makes me want to run my SM on an oval!

[Chains]

I had a great time at Lanier & Road Atlanta this past weekend, whole new respect for oval track racers and what they do, that is damn hard work on an oval track.

I agree with alot of the posts so far in this thread:

Alex is probably one of the top 10 SM drivers in the country, we did data on equal cars at Homestead, us switching both cars (my 99 car no plate equal type weight), Alex 1:47.3 , my self 1:47.4. I have ran a 1:47.5 in my 1.6 @ Homestead with the national motor in it. With the 150K bottom and the National head, best I could do was a 1:47.9 on tires from the Jan National 2011 (good not great, a few cords showing at the end of Sat race, more showing + steel belts at the end of Sun Race)

The results do not show you that my 1.6 has had no prep work really since the SIC of 2010, (I dont even wash it) Yet I can unload it from the trailer at a NASA event, and run with Alex in his 99 or my 99 that have been dynod', hundreds of hours of prep work, and not to mention powered by motors that rank in the top 5% SM has to offer, And go out there and run away from the field....

Now I joke alot, sandbag some, complain a little, but in the end, I really do want a fair race. I can't speak for everyone but I will say the day I can just run away from Alex in a top level 99 while in my DOP 1.6 with the junkyard bottom end. We do not have parity, it borderlines Insanity-----I thought insanity was 20 SM drivers going to a 3/8 mile OVAL track and racing , not for points, or Championships, or Podium finishes, but for the hell of it..

Compared to the current rule set and the choices of Insane options, I'll go back to Lanier - at least there I can complain about being DOP...

[dstevens]

I had a great time at Lanier & Road Atlanta this past weekend, whole new respect for oval track racers and what they do, that is damn hard work on an oval track.

In circle track racing not only do you have to be concerned with the wall, but the 20 or 30 other jackwagons running out there ramming into you. In the chat tonight Drago said he didn't have time to look in his mirrors. Circle track racing is all bout driving off your mirrors. It's certainly a different animal.

[Blake Clements]

Is this thing on? Did anyone hear me say that THE SAME DRIVER in two top prep cars (1.6/99) was ONE SECOND FASTER in the 1.6?

-Blake

[George Munson]

John,

You know I love you like a brother and I would love to help you in anyway I can. The biggest problem I see is without scales the testing would not be accurate. I know the cross changes very little however the side to side weight does. So changing back and forth in races would be a little tough. I've asked this question several times before and knowone has even tried to answer, "If the HP is now this close, why the hugh weight difference? I don't buy the "torque" is equal to almost 100 pounds. Maybe during a test day we can get some data. Make sure Jim has a plate in his trailer. We are doing some "Chin Events" and that might be a fair time for some data collecting.

Bottom line, I own one of each cars and have felt they are very even in SCCA trim. I would like a tick of torque for my 1.6, but thats just me. For myself as I stated before I want my cake and eat it too. I don't want to spend that extra hour or two preping for a NASA Race only to have to change back. Call me lazy but my time for this is limited. Keep in mine I can make "weight" in either trim, some can't. This is suppose to be fun. As I said before we need the crossover to support the class. You have worked way too hard to watch it turn the other way and thats the only reason I'm speaking up.

We can talk later about some testing.

George

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Is this thing on? Did anyone hear me say that THE SAME DRIVER in two top prep cars (1.6/99) was ONE SECOND FASTER in the 1.6?

-Blake

The reason the SKY IS FALLING is that nobody is listening! People want to hear what they want to hear even after reading posts that state the contrary.

The SKY IS FALLING!

Blake 1 second is parrity NO? lol

[dmathias]

Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I wasn't listening. Probably the best thing people who don't like NASA's specs can do is vote with their wallets. Don't like it - don't race it. Maybe then NASA will adjust - maybe not.

Frankly, I hate seeing those wussy 99 headlights in my mirrors anyway.

[Steve D]

Is this thing on? Did anyone hear me say that THE SAME DRIVER in two top prep cars (1.6/99) was ONE SECOND FASTER in the 1.6?

-Blake

I, for one, heard you.

I understand the urge to "vote with your wallet" but I plead with the 99 owners to not abandon NASA yet.

[Personal opinion ON] The cars are much closer than the off-season bench racing predictions told us they would be. In a small field, a well prepped 99 can still beat a pretty well prepped 1.6 if the driver skill is there. Can an equal-prep, equal-driver 99 beat a 1.6? Nope. Do we have unimpeachable evidence of that equal battle from a real race? Nope. Will we ever? Dunno. We damn sure won't if the fast 99 guys stay home.

Based on what I have seen so far in the racing and results, I believe that adding a bit of weight back to the 99s and opening the plate up will even things out. [Personal opinion OFF]

The data collection will continue. Call me Pollyanna, but I think we can get the cars closer, which in a perfect world would make the drivers happy to have a fair fight.

At the end of the day, if we make all the drivers equally unhappy (as gauged by the interwebs bitching volume), we have achieved parity.

[john mueller]

Is this thing on? Did anyone hear me say that THE SAME DRIVER in two top prep cars (1.6/99) was ONE SECOND FASTER in the 1.6?

-Blake

I hear ya (I read every one of these posts, even Adamczyk's novels).

I assume if both were top-prep cars then they both would have some sort of data aq... Get me the data!! Lap time alone means little without knowing other factors (like effort which can be determined by entry & exit speeds).

[Bench Racer]

I assume if both were top-prep cars then they both would have some sort of data aq... Get me the data!! Lap time alone means little without knowing other factors (like effort which can be determined by entry & exit speeds).

John, your not suggesting that drivers do & data doesn't are you.

As a side:

I would love to see one of those harty (legal NASA or SCCA) 1.6's at Road America.

[Chains]

What we really need is a test day, with (1) Good solid 1.6 car and (1) good solid 99 car , with 3 drivers, with some exp in both cars.

get all 3 drivers to run the 99 with the 37 plate @ 2390 and what we wll think it needs a 39mm plate @ 2400
record their best lap times , and avg lap times in at least a 10 lap test.

have all 3 drivers drive the 1.6 car for 10 laps, record the same.

I would be willing to supply the 2 test cars, both cars are very competitive and most of you have raced against them on more than one occasion.

Now we need 3 drivers, a test day (hopefully paid for by NASA) and the outcome to be taken into consideration for any plate changes that should be made (or not made) to the 99 cars.

[fishguyaz]

since nobody answered my question when this rule change first came up i will try it again, since it seemed that nobody was listening before when i asked it.

at the nasa national championship at miller last year, how many 99 cars were on the poduim?
was it a clean sweep of all 3 cars being 99s?
i believe the answer is zero(or maybe one 99 in there).
that said, how does that result, which is real world testing under championship conditions end up with NASA having the idea that the 99 rule set must be changed( to slow down the 99 cars)?

I had planned on running NASA this year out in cali(since there are no nasa SM competitors here in AZ running it seems). some here say that unless you are a "current NASA racer" that your input doesnt count/matter. thats not the correct way to view things, since I am an SM owner and competitor, or in NASAs' terms, i am a customer.
I have spoken with my wallet, and just gone to scca races this year, because of this rule change.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

The data collection will continue. Call me Pollyanna, but I think we can get the cars closer, which in a perfect world would make the drivers happy to have a fair fight.

One problem is we all define FAIR FIGHT differently. To some it is a budget car fighting fair with a top prep car. Some think it a lower level driver in a low prep level car fighting it out with one of the countries best drivers in one of the best cars. Others it is a top prep car competing with another top prep car, with equal driver abilities.

NASA needs to come out and define for us all what exactly FAIR FIGHT means!

Then you might be able to straighten this whole mess out!

[dstevens]

at the nasa national championship at miller last year, how many 99 cars were on the poduim?

The big dog 99s didn't go to Miller. They did the Runoffs instead. Miller was largely a west coast affair, not too many from the other side of the country. I'd reckon MO will the reverse this year with most from that side, a few from over here.