138 replies to this topic

[Armando Ramirez]

81 degrees in Miami, just South of Palm Beach.

[LarryKing]

Monday morning QB: Wouldn't it have made more sense to black flag all and stop the clock rather than have a 25 minute FYC?

[Todd Lamb]

It shouldn't have been a 25m FCY - they were slow to pick up some cars, plus it appeared that multiple further incidents happened under the FCY that extended it.

 

The fastest 1.6 in the country lost a wheel in the hairpin after the first 2 laps of caution, so we had to take the old hairpin for 3 laps (15minutes) while they cleaned up that one car.

[Johnny D]

Did the driver get confused when they told him to drive the wheels off?

J~

[Danny Steyn]

Word is that there was a loss of radio contact between T7 and the control tower. Apparently they were not aware that there was a car minus a wheel at T7, and so despite having cleaned up the mele at T17 and removed the car at T10, they never sent out a tow truck to T7. Cannot confirm this.

 

However, for us drivers in the cars, there we were, circulating lap after lap, going.... who the hell is running this show??????? Seriously! Totally unacceptable at every level.

[Tyson Schwiesow]

I wondered about the black flag issue as well.  Does that always stop the clock?

[Forrest Landy]

I wondered about the black flag issue as well.  Does that always stop the clock?

If I remember correctly they mentioned at the drivers meeting that the clock would only have stopped for a red or checkered flag. Not sure if that is a standard rule or specific to the event.

[True North]

I believe that is a standard rule...red or checker is the only way that clock stops.

[Stix37867]

Why do we time races the way we do anyways? All others (Rolex, ALMS, F1) finish the race after time expires rather than before. An example would be Saturdays race in that it would've had one more lap and finished at 31:16. It would seem that this would be favorable along with a 15s allowance rule maybe to eliminate any 'close calls'.

[Steve D]

Isn't this applicable?

 

GCR Page 65:

 

C: Late Checker

 

If the checker flag is not displayed at the scheduled end of the race and the race is one or more laps longer than scheduled, the race is scored as if it had ended at the scheduled length......

 

I believe that rule applies when the length (distance) runs longer than scheduled.  That is a much easier thing for a driver to determine in the cockpit than if the race time (duration) runs longer than scheduled.

 

Once Berry got by Bolanos, he built a pretty good gap quickly.  He was clearly the faster finisher.  I don't know either "winner" but IMHO Berry won the race.

[JRagaglia]

As the pace car driver for this event, I will address any issues in a private setting. I will not use this forum to air anyones dirty laundry nor will I badger my fellow  volunteers.

 

I am a competitor myself and do understand the frustration you all feel, however you are not aware of all that Really transpired throughout that whole ordeal. The only thing I will say publically ia that as the pace car driver, I was in contact with control and when they told me we were going to go green, I slowed somewhat (from the 45mph) we had been running, for A) to give the safety crew time to remove the car from the track at 7 (yes it was hooked but still had to be clear of track before going green,which by the way was not accomplished until we were past T16). 2nd I didn't want the field to be all spread out for a restart as it was for the prev. 20+ minutes of cruising around. As I have for the past 18+ years, I try to give everyone a fair shot at a start/restart.

 

That is all I will say publically, if anyone would like to carry this further with me, feel free to PM me.

 

Jack

[Michael Novak]

As the pace car driver for this event, I will address any issues in a private setting. I will not use this forum to air anyones dirty laundry nor will I badger my fellow  volunteers.

 

I am a competitor myself and do understand the frustration you all feel, however you are not aware of all that Really transpired throughout that whole ordeal. The only thing I will say publically ia that as the pace car driver, I was in contact with control and when they told me we were going to go green, I slowed somewhat (from the 45mph) we had been running, for A) to give the safety crew time to remove the car from the track at 7 (yes it was hooked but still had to be clear of track before going green,which by the way was not accomplished until we were past T16). 2nd I didn't want the field to be all spread out for a restart as it was for the prev. 20+ minutes of cruising around. As I have for the past 18+ years, I try to give everyone a fair shot at a start/restart.

 

That is all I will say publically, if anyone would like to carry this further with me, feel free to PM me.

 

Pace car did a great job.........the restart-- I thought was actually pretty good.

[zoomzoom22]

I believe that rule applies when the length (distance) runs longer than scheduled. That is a much easier thing for a driver to determine in the cockpit than if the race time (duration) runs longer than scheduled.

Once Berry got by Bolanos, he built a pretty good gap quickly. He was clearly the faster finisher. I don't know either "winner" but IMHO Berry won the race.

I missed that part of the rules where it clarified that scheduled end of race only meant distance

I don't claim t was good in either situation but the very wording of the rule says "scheduled end of race". The supps were clear that races were scheduled for 15 laps or 40 minutes. When it was clear it was going to be a timed race than 40 minutes was the scheduled race.

Good points all around including trying to guess whether to throw the flag as it would be so close to the time limit. Even the point a couple posts up to do it like Rolex and the race ends after the time limit I think is what exactly was done after the fact which wasn't ideal obviously. If the checker would have flown instead of green a lot of people would have been saying "I wish they would have given us 1 more lap" wouldn't they?

In addition to what did seem like a slow cleanup, I am also a little surprised nobody has mentioned a car ass packing another car during the caution laps and then SM hitting the wall at the bridge under full course caution which caused even more caution laps.

Maybe an appeal may at least result in a better process or clarification of the rule to avoid headache for all, another similar situation being avoided and subsequent damage. Lastly avoid all the bad blood.

[Glenn Davis]

Wow.  Does the race restart when the Green flag is dropped, or when the first driver crosses the line?  If the latter, Timing and Scoring should have contacted Race Control that the field should have been full course yellow immediately after the restart.

[High Chair]

Back to Memphis and 11 degrees What the!!!

Russ pretty much nailed it.

The race was about 15 minutes green, followed by about 25 minutes of caution. The dispatching of tow trucks and the way the time in the caution was managed was pitiful at best. They could have and should have cleaned that mess up in two laps, max three. The Florida guys might want to watch a few races at Road America. There was absolutely no need for 25 minutes of caution first of all. That was a real joke. That was the first problem.

The next issue was that I am sure the officials really wanted to give us as much race time as they could. As mentioned above. We ALL knew the race was going green for one lap 2-3 minutes before the restart. The pace car drive or the communication with the pace car driver was not good. If the goal was to get the race in, they should have communicated that they needed to pick up the pace. Not only did that not happen, the pace car actually slowed up. The green flag flew before 40 minutes, the first car ( Alex) crossed at 40:03. I have not gone back and read GCR, but what was stated and protested is the race ended when Alex crossed at 40:03. This will be sent to the Court of Appeals and hopefully will result in a much better decision and further clarification so this doesn't happen again. As what we thought could probably never happen again after COTA has happened again and the same guy is getting the short end of the stick.

Had the race ended under caution, NO ONE INCLUDING Craig would be upset. Sometimes things just don't work out. This result works out much better for me, 3rd instead of DFL, but with all due respect, I didnt care about third, I wanted a chance at the win. I feel it is wrong on many fronts. There needs to be some discretion, if that flag is flown, the race is on and finishes when the checker comes out. I am sure this will be the topic on a call very soon.
I agree on accountability as well. Two major failures by the race organizers have caused our class literally tens of thousands of dollars in damage. The Sprints grid debacle cost Craig and several others 5-6k each, this failure at Sebring will cost me about the same. I don't mind the damage under a green flag situation, we all accept that risk. But if you are telling my car was wrecked by no fault of my own on the track and in fact I should not even have been racing, maybe Central Florida region should be sending all of us who got damaged on the lap that shouldn't have happened a reimbursement check? I'm sure the videos will come out, but I was in a spot that I could have really gotten hurt, if all for a lap shouldn't have been, that is ridiculous.
I agree with Sean, starting a race like that with one to go is not in the best interests of the racers and more like entertainment for the corner workers and few spectators. We all knew "it" was going to happen, we all just hoped it didn't happen to us.
Another thing that caused a lot of the carnage is guys laying back on the restart to jump the start.

 

Drago,

We will see what the COA says but I think the rules are pretty clear and the last lap will not count. Frankly my personal belief is that you, Todd, and others are piss poor sportsman (dealing with this issue) because you did not get the results that you wanted. Isn't it already enough that your cars have more horsepower than everybody else's, that you can out drag race anybody down the straights. That you can win Championships by showing up with multiple teammates using radios to keep the competition at bay. I hope Alex shows his video because after seeing it I think it will start a whole new topic. However; you more than any other driver should know this means,

GCR Page 65:

C: Late Checker

If the checker flag is not displayed at the scheduled end of the race and the race is one or more laps longer than scheduled, the race is scored as if it had ended at the scheduled length......

 

But like usual East Street is more concerned about playing the rule book to their advantage than having a level playing field. But at least your posts are not as pathetic as Todd Lamb's so you have that going for you.

JT

[Ron Alan]

Question for those who were there...as I understand, 1 person/team filed a protest? Had this not happened, would the outcome have been as we all saw it on Race Monitor? At this point, are the powers that be entertaining an appeal to the protest ruling? That ruling which reverted the final standings back to as they were during yellow correct?

In the end this discussion needed to happen and SCCA needs better control...but my guess is there would have been a lot less fuss without the protest? And/or if the results are as they were at the checkered?

[Ron Alan]

You're a hoot Jamie! Not being part of the Eaststreet gang or the Florida clan, I can say its fair(and normal) for anyone to be a homer! In this case...the sportsmanship dagger can be thrown from either side and find something to stick in! But your argument falls apart when you start throwing accusations and innuendo as evidence. Feel free to correct me, but I have never heard of an Eaststreet car/driver being found non-compliant. Don't think that can be said about all Florida car/drivers?

My money is with you and your opinion on how this will turn out...but how it got there needs to be resolved. Poor live time decisions are not good for our sport or friendships...even if it's arch enemy friendships

[LarryKing]

 

I believe that is a standard rule...red or checker is the only way that clock stops.

 

And a 'black flag all'. That also stops the clock. It's in the GCR folks.

 

Mr. H. Chair - He knows 6.10.4C

 

Are we all still smilin?

 

-7* in Columbus

[Todd Lamb]

Jamie - it's a shame you feel the need to turn this into a personal attack, especially for someone who does not even know me. Stay classy.

 

If I was concerned about results or finishing position, I would not have dropped out of Saturday's race while running 2nd with a shot at the win. If Drago was concerned about results he would not be saying anything, as he was a victim of the last lap incident.

 

The issues at hand are the rules, how they are handled to make racers happy, and general sportsmanship. I think we can all agree we'd rather finish a race under green, and SCCA let everyone know that was their intention minutes before the restart ever occurred. For Bolanos to protest over a 3 second difference when the margin for error is so high (the pace car could have gone .5s/lap quicker under yellow, for example) seems unreasonable. I bet we all wish we could decide to end the race when we are leading, but the checkered flag ends the race.

 

For me it's a matter of principle - doesn't really matter who won, I'm there for the fun and competition (and the coaching gig). To throw a wrench into the works over a technicality, that could have gone either way, takes away from the experience.

[Craig Berry]

Jamie after reading your coments it made me think how easily we could take this in the wrong direction. This is not FLA vs E Street or me vs Alex, its about accountability and getting the organization and decision making WE ALL deserve. Yes everyone makes mistakes but the decision to run or not run the last lap was one that should not be debated.
I would have finished 2nd not first.....yes I would have been dissapointed but with this group you just hope to be at the front. The race was so early when you see my video you will see after Alex makes his pass on me I fall in line to push. I was very content to have a 2 man race the way we did before...obviously non of us dreamed of a 25m yellow. I would not have filed a protest if I was in Alex's position, but that does not make it wrong for him to do so. I feel he would be upset if I the shoe were on the other foot...but maybe not.
We all see the rule, but there are so many more questions some may not be aware of....do not want to go into all of them now, but we recieved the Official, not Provisional results.....and they indicate the final green flag lap. How long after can a competitor come back to have the official results changed?....I really do not know.
Bottom line for me is I would feel bad if Alex took the green won a hard fought race and for no fault of his own it was taken. I think we all agree WE deserve better. This may be an amature joke to the officials where we should be happy to be there, but manyof us take this seriously and would even race a pro series if we could afford. Spec Miata has become the backbone of amature racing. An official pointed out to me that we were the largest group Sat and had NO yellow flags....only one other class Sat could say that.
We should all expect more. I dont know anyone at there job or business who can just say Sorry, We Screwed Up.
Lets stay focused on what is better for the sport, this makes us all look bad and puts us all in a position NONE of us want to be in.