132 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

I say its about time the correct TT/PT rules get enforced nationwide.   If someone in SM wanting to run TTE would like to petition to get more 'no points' mods in TT/PT class, I wouldn't mind but somehow I just don't see shimming the steering rack becomming a no-points mod like it is in SM along with other SM unique allowances such as a front lip crossing over.    Maybe TT wants to create a special TTSM class just for SM cars though?  There's an idea anyway!  ...heck, that might become another unique way to motivate TTers to build towards an SM miata and keep the SM class going that much stronger and longer!

 

You mean all the stuff on page 40~ that's been out since Jan 15th ??

http://www.nasaprora...uring_rules.pdf

 

J~

[Chad Martin]

....which have changed at least twice since then....

 

I'm trying to get clarification on what the recently added "no non-BTM head" to the preapproved SM PT re-base classes in the appendix actually means.  The way the PT rules are normally enforced the argument ended up with whether or not a pro-built SM legal head was arguably beyond what the "Base Trim Model" might have had from the factory as a "very good stock" head.

 

I'm hoping we are not back to square 1 on arguing plunge cuts...etc or i might scream

 

sorry if jacked another thread with PT/TT rules cesspool

[Danny Steyn]

 

 

I'm happy to help anyone fill out PT/TT forms.  

 

Thanks Chad. I was one of the several drivers who was DQ'd after the fact. Since I have emailed the various persons in NASA regarding this I feel that it should be OK to speak openly about my experience.

 

I had never run TT before, and had read the rule book several times, but was still uncertain about several items. Prior to registration, while obtaining my NASA license, I asked the SE registration personnel who could assist me. I was told that I would get assisted when I go to the track. So when I registered trackside on Friday, I asked for the TT director to assist. Due to the snow storms several people were unable to make the event, and I believe that Jeff England was one of these guys. Anyway at registration they could not tell me who would assist my classification. They took me cell phone number and promised to have the person assigned to the duty to call me, which of course never happened.

 

So I and a few others went out for the first 2 sessions without paperwork, but the guy doing the gridding told us that we had to get our paperwork in prior to the next session. So we went looking for the person in charge. Apparently he was doing pace car duties and could not see us. Myself and several others went back serval times and spoke to his wife to ensure that he stopped by our trailer (less than 50 yards away) so that we could comply with the paperwork requirement. Eventually we submitted paperwork and our crew chief Tom Fowler, went to make sure it was all OK. Tom was also unsure about a few items, and once those were clarified, he made some changes and the paperwork was accepted. 

 

We completed the remaining runs, and then this week we learned that we were DQ'd from all sessions. That in itself is a tough one to accept, especially when we, the customer made repeated attempts to get help from the persons in charge for items that obviously are difficult for even those in charge to interpret.  But what was way more disturbing was the language of the emails that myself and the other DQ'd drivers received. I would categorize it as very close to contempt....... anyway, to each their own.

 

I run a few small businesses, and I strive to attract new customers. But when I get one, I move heaven and earth to retain him as I fully understand how difficult it was to get him in the first place. So I did find the tone of the email correspondence to be particularly strange. 

[Johnny D]

PT is HP/WT however you get there.

 

This has SM written all over it without saying it.

The HP dyno # are max # a SM can make for each year.

 

J~

[Danny Steyn]

And Chad

 

I would love to know how to assess the points for a '99 Miata - does my car run in TTE or TTD??

 

• 1999 Mazda Miata 1.8L
• car and driver =  2415 lbs, 
• Fully prepped SM car 
• Engine makes 126 RWHP SAE on the Rossini dynojet that is used to classify NASA SE HP ratings
• Always runs with restrictor plate
• Running Hoosier SM7's or Toyo RR's
• Chin spoiler
• Fat cats
• Bilstein shocks
• Mazda comp suspension kit

Any help will greatly be appreciated, not only by myself but by many others who are just as confused.

[Chad Martin]

 

PT is HP/WT however you get there.

 

This has SM written all over it without saying it.

The HP dyno # are max # a SM can make for each year.

 

J~

 

Not true, especially not anymore.   Jim can back me on this one, Greg is now asking a lot of very specific questions on how each car is set up, modified, to get the HP submitted for re-base classing.  And now the published "SM targeted" re-base classes list "No motor swap, no Forced induction, and No non BTM head"  So im concerned that Greg is back to giving a SM "pro-head" the stink eye.

 

Here is a short list of things Greg now will ask and require you to submit in writing to issue an individualized re-base class.

 

Forced Induction?

Motor Swap?

Head Work? (Details)

Change in Displacement or Compression Ratio?

Aftermarket Crankshaft?

[Johnny D]

And Chad

 

I would love to know how to assess the points for a '99 Miata - does my car run in TTE or TTD??

 

• 1999 Mazda Miata 1.8L
• car and driver =  2415 lbs, 
• Fully prepped SM car 
• Engine makes 126 RWHP SAE on the Rossini dynojet that is used to classify NASA SE HP ratings
• Always runs with restrictor plate
• Running Hoosier SM7's or Toyo RR's
• Chin spoiler
• Fat cats
• Bilstein shocks
• Mazda comp suspension kit

Any help will greatly be appreciated, not only by myself but by many others who are just as confused.

 

Your PTE/TTE

If you look at page 40 ?

 

Your over weight (not you, your car)

Under HP, (Could go larger RP to make 130, IMO) But it's ment to keep you in SM trim. 

Bigger tires 235 in , but can subtract for 205's which helps.

 

I haven't tried it yet this.  You check off what you have on each page, add/subtract pts total at bottom, go to next page, add all.

You will not assess modification points for Section B. Weight Reduction or Section C. Engine Mods. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '99-‘00 Mazda Miata must be assessed points.

 

I can try to do it tonight.

Get John Mueller in on this, he should get Greg.

 

 

Mazda Miata ’99-’00 (1.8L), no motor swap, non-BTM head, or F/I:

Your '99-‘00 Mazda Miata 1.8L with a maximum 130 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a Minimum Competition Weight (w/driver) of 2390 lbs, will have a new PT/TT base class of PTE/TTE. Your new base tire size is 235mm. You will not assess modification points for Section B. Weight Reduction or Section C. Engine Mods. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '99-‘00 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet HP and Minimum Competition Weight during any tech. inspection.

This option may only be used with a PTE/TTE or higher Final Competition Class.

Please keep a copy of this e-mail and the most recent Dynojet sheets and Dyno Certification Form with the vehicle log book as proof of re-classing. Also, turn in a copy of this e-mail, the Dynojet sheets, and the Dyno Certification Form with your PT/TT Car Classification Form to your Regional PT/TT Director. Note that the car will still need to be compliant with the Minimum Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio for whichever Competition Class you choose to run in.

This is an Official, approved, Dyno Re-Class copied from the current PT Rules, Appendix C

[Johnny D]

 

 

 

Not true, especially not anymore.   Jim can back me on this one, Greg is now asking a lot of very specific questions on how each car is set up, modified, to get the HP submitted for re-base classing.  And now the published "SM targeted" re-base classes list "No motor swap, no Forced induction, and No non BTM head"  So im concerned that Greg is back to giving a SM "pro-head" the stink eye.

 

Here is a short list of things Greg now will ask and require you to submit in writing to issue an individualized re-base class.

 

Forced Induction?

Motor Swap?

Head Work? (Details)

Change in Displacement or Compression Ratio?

Aftermarket Crankshaft?

 

 

What I don't get is a PTE Miata (NOT SM) has more HP and has way better suspension and is over clocked on the ECU,

 

So I don't get the case you bring up about the SM head when a PTE Miata will have 140HP and kick a SM tail.

 

Forced Induction?  Do we have this ??

Motor Swap?   He mean to a bigger engine (BMW rule IMO)

Head Work? (Details)   SM is nothing compared to PTE

Change in Displacement or Compression Ratio?   You know what compression ratio the class has right ??

Aftermarket Crankshaft?  Do we ??

[Chad Martin]

And Chad

 

I would love to know how to assess the points for a '99 Miata - does my car run in TTE or TTD??

 

• 1999 Mazda Miata 1.8L
• car and driver =  2415 lbs, 
• Fully prepped SM car 
• Engine makes 126 RWHP SAE on the Rossini dynojet that is used to classify NASA SE HP ratings
• Always runs with restrictor plate
• Running Hoosier SM7's or Toyo RR's
• Chin spoiler
• Fat cats
• Bilstein shocks
• Mazda comp suspension kit

Any help will greatly be appreciated, not only by myself but by many others who are just as confused.

 

First i really hate that this happened and it frustrates me to hear of it.  For my small part i've tried to improve NASAs credibility in my volunteer work for them.  I am a business owner myself and i get customer service.  I love the technical aspect of racing and enjoy what i do with NASA.  In my mind once all the haulers have left the track it's really not a good idea mess with results...hopefully my 2 cents does not blow back on me but what are they gonna do...fire me (see volunteer above)?  Either way nobody asked me so....

 

Miata drivers have 3 options, straight points, the published SM targeted rebase class or a custom rebaseclass.

 

Using the published SM targeted re-base class and ignoring the un-resolved question on what exactly is meant by adding the "no non-base-trim-model head" caveat...lets look at it for your car.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that BTM definition;  You start with any (either) year of stripped down model for your year range (99 or 00).  Absolute base trim with no options or packages.

Rebaseclass 99 miata: PTE/TTE, min 2390lbs, max 130 dynojet whp

 

Section A - Tires

SM7s (handled currently as R6s) = +10pts

PTE/TTE base tire class is 235, SM7 is a 205 = -7pts

Total Tire points = +3

 

With re-base class you ignore section B and Section C

 

Section D - Drivetrain

Added LSD = +3

 

Section E - Suspension

Shocks (non adj, no ext res) +3

Springs +2

Sway Bars (includes end links) +2

Since the fat cats are integral to the suspension components its part of the points total above.

Spec Miata Suspension is +7 total

 

Section F - Brakes/Chassis

Assume you are running base model brakes per the SM rules = 0 points

 

Section G - Aerodynamics

The chin spoiler at worst is +5 or +6, some might argue it's +3 and I apply it as such but it's subjective and the aero rules being threshold rules to not make using optional factory bits attractive at all. Either way it does not matter for the NB cars they have 6 points to play with.  To be safe id mark G.1 and G.3 if you run it.  Id be very surprised if you ran into trouble with that conservative an approach.  I don't think anyone could argue successfully that it's a splitter in any way shape or form.

+5

 

Section H - Roll Cage

Spec miata Legal Cage is 0pts

 

Added up that's at most, 18pts (19 maxes out TTE/PTE)

[Chad Martin]

What I don't get is a PTE Miata (NOT SM) has more HP and has way better suspension and is over clocked on the ECU,

 

So I don't get the case you bring up about the SM head when a PTE Miata will have 140HP and kick a SM tail.

 

Forced Induction?  Do we have this ??

Motor Swap?   He mean to a bigger engine (BMW rule IMO)

Head Work? (Details)   SM is nothing compared to PTE

Change in Displacement or Compression Ratio?   You know what compression ratio the class has right ??

Aftermarket Crankshaft?  Do we ??

 

I don't disagree with any of that.  But that's all beside the point.  I'm simply applying rules as written.  I was simply refuting your claim that it's just a HP number and it does not matter how you get there.  It does now, regardless of if you are re-base classing or going on straight points.  And even the published miata reclasses meant for spec miatas now has the caveats i listed.

[Chris101]

Perhaps listing ALL the things that are 'no points' legal in SM but cost points in PT will help folks?

 

....like having to take points for an LSD, chin spoiler, shims on the steering rack,  etc.

 

I think a lot of times people might forget, Oh yeah, I did that.. and forgot about it since it is legal in SM (such as an air intake change on a 1.6 miata while totally legal for SM is not a no-points mod in TT/PT)

[Chad Martin]

Perhaps listing ALL the things that are 'no points' legal in SM but cost points in PT will help folks?

 

....like having to take points for an LSD, chin spoiler, shims on the steering rack, etc.

 

Check this thread out.  It outlines most of it except for the complex discussion about the chin lip spoilers as i mentioned above.

 

http://mazdaracers.c...assing-a-miata/

[Johnny D]

Chad, you did good adding everything up, and that's how it is, don't make it more complicated, NASA's not like that.

 

J~

[Chad Martin]

Danny i hope you send a reply along the lines of what you posted above.  Please let them know exactly what you stated.  The more i think about how that all went down the more it upsets me...after my experience here and at sprints last year if id love to see this class of car/competitor at a nasa championship event.

[Jim Drago]

Chad, you did good adding everything up, and that's how it is, don't make it more complicated, NASA's not like that.
 

J~

Agreed!

The problem lies here in the RED

NB 99+ chassis cars base PT class is PTE at 2400lbs

Engine
+3 Exhaust (+2 cat back, +1 for cat removal)
+2 Fuel Pressure Regulator
+6 If any of the SM legal "pro motor" head work

Suspension
+2 Sway Bars
+2 Springs
+3 Shocks

Aero
+3 Chin Spoiler

Drivetrain
+3 LSD

Tires (base class tire size is 235)
+2 205 RRs (9pt tires -7 pt for size)
+3 205 SM6s (10pt tires -7 pt for size)

Potential total of 26-27 pts....more than 19 puts it in PTD

 

 

 

 

 

The PT directors have a problem with Spec miatas and are assigning ported head points to SM which is ENTIRELY inaccurate and completely unfair.  I wrote the SM head rules that NASA uses. Those rules "spec" a very good untouched head from Mazda.  

 

If you pull your chin spoiler, you are 100% PTE compliant. There is NO reason that you could be disqualified,  PERIOD! 

 

NASA should adopt something like we did in SCCA STL.. Any Sm car can run in full SM trim in STL. NASA should allow any SM compliant car in PTE.  You would still get 99 up guys pulling sm stickers off the door and running PTE less plate though, I would.

[Johnny D]

On the pro head.

Ya, ........ kind of

 

You can follow that, but techs going to weight, dyno, whistle, so if you don't go over 130, I don't see it as a DQ, YMMV.

PT is still hp / weight / compression and check the right boxes.

J~

[Jim Drago]

On the pro head.
Ya, ........ kind of

No, not kind of You are being assigned full ported points. We are doing a basic valve job. Put another way, I could do ANY other PTE car with the EXACT same head job and take zero points
Jim

[Chad Martin]

I think Jim is going down the road of pulling the restrictor which would easily push a 99 over 130 HP.  In which case we end up having to talk about the head and the spoiler...again...which is giving me a headache so...

 

I really need a beer, have a good weekend Gents...

[Johnny D]

No, not kind of You are being assigned full ported points. We are doing a basic valve job. Put another way, I could do ANY other PTE car with the EXACT same head job and take zero points
Jim

 

Danny said what great tech they have. Go ahead go by the book.

 

If tech shed knowledge says Weigh, dyno, whistle, than, that car is bone stock, and my #'s will prove it.

J~

[Johnny D]

I think Jim is going down the road of pulling the restrictor which would easily push a 99 over 130 HP.  In which case we end up having to talk about the head and the spoiler...again...which is giving me a headache so...

 

I really need a beer, have a good weekend Gents...

 

That what I like about this. get there anyway you want and don't spend 6k on a motor.

I think I guy in PTE did junkyard / header.

J~