132 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

That what I like about this. get there anyway you want and don't spend 6k on a motor.
I think I guy in PTE did junkyard / header.
J~

I like that method too.. you could simply run a 130hp/130 ft car with a restrictor :)It would make 130 from 5-7000. Not as easy as get there any way you can, because 130/118 doesnt stand a chance

[Johnny D]

If everyone passes , weigh, dyno and compression. Do you really have a problem and need to DQ somebody ??

J~

[Johnny D]

I like that method too.. you could simply run a 130hp/130 ft car with a restrictor :)It would make 130 from 5-7000. Not as easy as get there any way you can, because 130/118 doesnt stand a chance

 

Would you pass compression ?

Not sure if this re-case has posted ratios ??

This is also based off SM running PTE, unless your just talking PTE.

J~

[Johnny D]

Jim you know a lot, very smart, IMO and are an awsome racer.

 

Maybe your not the right person to be asking these question too.

J~

[Johnny D]

Agreed!

The problem lies here in the RED

+6 If any of the SM legal "pro motor" head work

 

 

Remember were talking about page 40~

http://www.nasaprora...uring_rules.pdf

 

Which has ...

 

You will not assess modification points for Section B. Weight Reduction or Section C. Engine Mods.

So we're all legal in tech and all the issue you listed.

 

Don't ask don't tell policy

J~

[mjw]

Remember were talking about page 40~

http://www.nasaprora...uring_rules.pdf

 

Which has ...

 

You will not assess modification points for Section B. Weight Reduction or Section C. Engine Mods.

So we're all legal in tech and all the issue you listed.

 

Don't ask don't tell policy

J~

If you are using the dyno reclass listed on page 40 then you must comply with the 5.4 Dyno Re-Classing and Testing Procedures starting on page 28.  Which means you must have a certified dyno sheet to turn in with you class form.

 

"The Certified Dyno report will consist of both the Dyno sheet with three separate, reproducible Dyno tests with SAE correction (with the identifying information listed in 5.4.3) and a completed ST/PT/TT Dyno Certification Form. The competitor must include a copy of the Official Re-class e-mail, along with the Certified Dyno report when submitting the PT Car Classification Form to the Regional PT (or Race) Director before competition."

 

Then you still must take points for any other modifications (except for sections 5.3B and C) from the base trim model of the car, as Chad has mentioned.  A fully prepped 99+ SM can not run in PTE/TTE if using points only, it will end up in D.  The only way for a 99+ full SM to run in E is to use the dyno reclass on page 40 and have a certified dyno sheet along with the class form.

 

In the Midwest and Great Lakes regions, the top 3 finishers in PTE are put on the dyno after many races.  We had a 99 SM that was in PTE by points because he said that he had no engine mods at all (no head work at all, no fuel pressure adjustment, etc.).  He finished in third and got put on the dyno. He dynoed at 151rwhp and was DQed for being outside of the P/W ratio (limit is 16.5 to 1 for PTE and he was at 15.88 to 1 which is PTD range).  The engine was clearly not stock at that horsepower level.

 

 

Mike

[Johnny D]

If you are using the dyno reclass listed on page 40 then you must comply with the 5.4 Dyno Re-Classing and Testing Procedures starting on page 28.  Which means you must have a certified dyno sheet to turn in with you class form.

 

"The Certified Dyno report will consist of both the Dyno sheet with three separate, reproducible Dyno tests with SAE correction (with the identifying information listed in 5.4.3) and a completed ST/PT/TT Dyno Certification Form. The competitor must include a copy of the Official Re-class e-mail, along with the Certified Dyno report when submitting the PT Car Classification Form to the Regional PT (or Race) Director before competition."

 

Then you still must take points for any other modifications (except for sections 5.3B and C) from the base trim model of the car, as Chad has mentioned.  A fully prepped 99+ SM can not run in PTE/TTE if using points only, it will end up in D.  The only way for a 99+ full SM to run in E is to use the dyno reclass on page 40 and have a certified dyno sheet along with the class form.

 

In the Midwest and Great Lakes regions, the top 3 finishers in PTE are put on the dyno after many races.  We had a 99 SM that was in PTE by points because he said that he had no engine mods at all (no head work at all, no fuel pressure adjustment, etc.).  He finished in third and got put on the dyno. He dynoed at 151rwhp and was DQed for being outside of the P/W ratio (limit is 16.5 to 1 for PTE and he was at 15.88 to 1 which is PTD range).  The engine was clearly not stock at that horsepower level.

 

 

Mike

 

Yes.

But you must see the max hp# (on page 40~) are all max # for SMs.

And you see on that page don't count engine mods.

I see it as no confusion (even though we are here) for SM about racing in PTD or not, you're racing in PTE. IMO

It says to count all the rest, don't they all add up but not go over PTE?

 

The 151 guy was not a SM.

 

One question I have is, is there now a PTE Miata that's not in SM trim?

As Drago pointed out and has been an issue, if you add engine mods your PTD.

 

And the SM ratio is like 18, when PTEs ratio is 16 (weight/power)

J~

[Chris101]

Go look up SCCA events under Gary Ellis #49 and you will find he did indeed run as a Spec Miata many MANY times (obviously not a legal SM but never close enough to the front in SCCA races to get dynoed or engine broken down/inspected to get DQed)

[Jim Drago]

And the SM ratio is like 18, when PTEs ratio is 16 (weight/power)
J~

At 16, if you have a 99/05 "SM" Why wouldn't you run that car in PTE as a 99/05 miata with no plate? You would pass the dyno test. The head points are not accurate( that is a SM rewards weight IMO) and further more can not be proved. WE SPECED A GOOD STOCK HEAD IN THE RULES! The car is compliant to the rules if you pull the chin spoiler, no question. If you have a really good 99 up car, add FP to gain tq and lower peak Hp to stay compliant with dyno test.
Jim

[Johnny D]

The intent IMO is what most SMers are doing already. Run SM and run PTE, some put better tires/pull plates

 

Nothing has really changed with this re-class, but stay in SM trim, fill out the PT form, (leave out Sec B and C), Dyno I guess, I haven't, and go have fun.

Everyone is still as equal/close as in SM but in PTE. Yes PTE Miata are faster, maybe not the driver.

On the 1.8's I guess you could go to a bigger Rp not going over your Max Hp. maybe making even closer racing. And add FP pressure

 

This may resolve the 25hr issue, 949 is PTE, most the rest are SM with maybe a mod. 2 sec off.

 

I'm sure Greg get a lot of this all the time, every event, and this gets rid of the headaches for him, as long as the reg PTE dir know this, Conference call guys ???

J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Go look up SCCA events under Gary Ellis #49 and you will find he did indeed run as a Spec Miata many MANY times (obviously not a legal SM but never close enough to the front in SCCA races to get dynoed or engine broken down/inspected to get DQed)

 

http://www.greatlake...13-102113_0.pdf

 

here is the link to the great lakes regional points, as far as I know that is the only place Gary Ellis races...  You will not find him entered as a spec miata nor will you find him on the points list for SM, meaning he did not race a single SM race in 2013, He did however win the ITS point title in 2013, and has since made his car SM legal so you will see him racing SM in 2014.  Just wanted to set that straight for the record, as for the DQ in nasa, that is true but I do not know how accurate the statement that he entered PTE as an SM, you must fill out a PT sheet before every race nowhere on that sheet have I ever seen a place to just write SM in and presto chango your all set, Evertime I have ever run the PT class I filled out a points sheet and I raced PTE all but 2 Races both in which I had added an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to the car and coulnt make points so I bumped up a class.  My purpose built PTE car always qualified for PTE under the points without a dyno sheet and the car easily would have passed a dyno at the track, as the track dyno is about 6hp lower then my home town dyno, that car finished p3 at the 2011 nasa championships.  there are so many free mods in the PT class, yet still the miata is not the car to win if anyone with a fully built Honda shows up for PTE and can drive it.

[Ron Alan]

 
This may resolve the 25hr issue, 949 is PTE, most the rest are SM with maybe a mod. 2 sec off.
 

J~

I don't really think there is an issue...those who have come to the NASA 25hr in a SM prepped car new full well there would be true PTE cars that are faster. That said...a 99 SM prepped car without chin spoiler and RP running 205 tires held the PTE track record in this race. It was beat this year I believe in a true PTE car (Miata) driven by one of our best SM drivers in Mark Drennan. But the time difference was less than .5 sec I believe. Hopefully my info is accurate as I got part of this in casual conversations

[Chad Martin]

At 16, if you have a 99/05 "SM" Why wouldn't you run that car in PTE as a 99/05 miata with no plate? You would pass the dyno test. The head points are not accurate( that is a SM rewards weight IMO) and further more can not be proved. WE SPECED A GOOD STOCK HEAD IN THE RULES! The car is compliant to the rules if you pull the chin spoiler, no question. If you have a really good 99 up car, add FP to gain tq and lower peak Hp to stay compliant with dyno test.
Jim

 

This is the gist of it.  If you want to keep the RP use the reclass and you can run a SM without any changes in PTE/TTE.  Or.....

 

If you want to ditch the RP, go on points alone.  PULL THE CHIN LIP SPOILER.  IMO its valid to call it a BTM head, but just know that you have to meet the following:

 

94-97 cars = 2325 min weight, 140 max hp 19pts on 205 Toyo RRs (with rack shims and/or R tie rod ends)

94-97 cars = 2325 min weight, 140 max hp 18pts on Hoosier SM6/7s (without rack shims or R tie rod ends)

99-00 cars = 2395 min weight, 144 max hp 18pts on Hoosier SM6/7s

 

(you get to list the min comp weight at 5lbs below the listed baseclass weight if you are not dyno reclassing)

 

The 01-05 cars are a problem taking the points only route.  They have a PTE* base class meaning PTE +7 without any mods.  So you'd have to pull quite a few parts, certainly more than worth the hassle if you are just supersizing your SM entry to run TT too...