61 replies to this topic

[Bad Rusty]

FIRST,

 

Let me say thanks to all of the volunteers and officials at the SCCA Major in Arizona this weekend.  There were a LOT of snafus, most of which were out of their control, and they did the best they could to remedy.  That being said, we once again saw what makes SM such a great class, we have a lot of classy people.

 

Random Tech (I won that prize Saturday, do I get free Hoosiers?)

• I was fortunate to be one of the top 6 who was randomly chosen for a bore and stroke test.  I thought it was fine and just asked that they not drop anything down the spark plug hole
• Drivers went off to a drivers meeting, and I had no problem leaving my car in the hands of Bill and Ken (Both Tech Stewards I believe)
• While walking back from the meeting, Bill approached Ken and was asked if everything was good, and I overheard "We've got a problem".
• I know my motor builder (Mike HAAG), and know how clear I have made my "This better be legal" pitch, so I was a little lost and asked them what was going on.  Bill said it was measuring out of spec, and would not pass (Something to that effect, no malice in it, just what he was reading)
• I asked for them to do the test in front of me so I could see it for myself.  I also said that if it was failing that I would ask them to randomly choose another 99 to make sure their test was accurate (I'm not even sure if I could ask that ,but it seemed more than reasonable), and the guys said that seemed fine.
• While watching them perform the test (With a contraption I am not familiar with), it became apparent to me that there were some suspect accuracy issues because of unsteady hands. I asked for another person to perform the test and WALLA! I was at 83MM? Or whatever was the exact spec.  The previous readings taken when I was at the drivers meeting were 85 and 86 (With some decimals).
• I don't know the name of the guy who was with Clement, but he not only pointed out that we had a MM of allowance, but kindly nudged me when I asked for someone else to measure.  Somebody tell me his name, because he was a solid guy to help me out and deserves acknowledgment (Turned on my video camera Sunday too!)
• They never did check stroke:)  Maybe it is a 2 liter after all:)
• All of the above being said, my car was legal, but had I not pushed the issue, they may have DQ'd me over inaccurate numbers.
• I tried to be graceful with Bill and Ken, and hope I was.  It is hard to be accused of cheating when you are not, but since I was 99.99% sure, I had to push the issue. 
• Bill and Ken were both professional, we all shook hands afterwards and I thanked them for their efforts.

REMEDY (Not the Black Crowes version).

• I LOVE! And appreciate that they are checking cars.  The fact that I was down on power to everyone (We had to put a 77k mile street head on at Fontana:)) didn't factor in as it was random, and I'm cool with that too.
• However, as a non-mechanic, I would really like to have more confidence in the tech stewards knowing the process, procedure and legality issues a LOT better before implementing any tests.
• We had an email a while back and Sean (Miata Cage) brought up some good things to test.  I'd really like to send all of the Tech Stewards that list, plus some random ideas, and see if they can pick a few and learn how to test them accurately (If possible) at the track.
• This reminds me of drug testing in "Le Tour".  Drug testers get paid X to catch people, Drug makers get paid 100X to not get caught.  I just think that we need to arm the techs with enough knowledge and expertise (Which we can only do in a few areas probably), that they can correctly tech the field.
• Maybe we will have more "Miata Expert Tech's" at upcoming Majors?

 

So, just my experience from this weekend, but as I try and make it to the runoffs and finish in the top half, I hope the level of tech can catch up with the level of "prep" we now have in our class.  I want to compete as straight up as possible.  Better drivers, fine.  Better Prep, fine.  Better Cheaters, not fine.

 

FYI, RJ Gordy was our chief steward for the weekend (And all West Coast Majors I think), and hats off to him for trying to manage the event.  There were a lot of problems (Manmade, nature mad, completely random etc.), but I think he rallied the troops as best as he could.

 

Thank you SCCA Workers!

Rusty Dees

[Mike Collins]

I feel your pain.  there are very few tools that can "REALLY" measure bore while the head is still on the car....and even fewer guys who can use them repeatedly and accurately.  Thanks for keeping your head.  everyone is a volunteer an hopefully it all worked out and everyone learned something.

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

 

• I don't know the name of the guy who was with Clement, but he not only pointed out that we had a MM of allowance, but kindly nudged me when I asked for someone else to measure.  Somebody tell me his name, because he was a solid guy to help me out and deserves acknowledgment (Turned on my video camera Sunday too!)
•  

 

 

I believe you are referring to LEWIS of Rush Motorsports.  It sounds like him....especially the nudging  (LOL)  Anyway great to meet you at the race and you showed great patience.  I am all for them checking stuff too.

[Danny Steyn]

Rusty - great post - thanks for sharing the process with all. Not everyone has been through a tech inspection, and yes, not all inspectors are proficient at all the tasks they are asked to perform. And kudos to the techs that allowed their measurements to be questioned. 

[FTodaro]

Just a point to be made on this post, good post Rusty and fellow racers make mental note. I have had this tool used on my car after winning a race last year. My car passed but i was thinking to my self. This was not an accurate looking tool.  The tool i saw looked like just bumping it coming out of the plug hole would change the reading.

 

If any of you get dinged by a reading of the bore tool i would

1) ask that that take 2 or 3 readings in front of you to see if they can reproduce the result

2) have them test another vehicle that you feel pretty sure is bone stock

3) if you faill ask what the margin of error is or what is the range of pass fail

4) if you fail get weighed you are 15 lbs overweight you can go to .10 over with the extra 15lbs.

 

As I said i passed but i want thinking i could see this going bad.

[Charlie Hayes]

Luis is a very stand up guy and builds some very good engines 

 

 

Just a point to be made on this post, good post Rusty and fellow racers make mental note. I have had this tool used on my car after winning a race last year. My car passed but i was thinking to my self. This was not an accurate looking tool.  The tool i saw looked like just bumping it coming out of the plug hole would change the reading.

 

If any of you get dinged by a reading of the bore tool i would

1) ask that that take 2 or 3 readings in front of you to see if they can reproduce the result

2) have them test another vehicle that you feel pretty sure is bone stock

3) if you faill ask what the margin of error is or what is the range of pass fail

4) if you fail get weighed you are 15 lbs overweight you can go to .10 over with the extra 15lbs.

 

As I said i passed but i want thinking i could see this going bad.

 

For step 4 you would need to be claiming the 2315, 2365, or 2415 at all times for that to work. Cant get tested be 15 over and say "well Im over weight now...." 

[James York]

 

4) if you fail get weighed you are 15 lbs overweight you can go to .10 over with the extra 15lbs.

 

 

Only if you entered your car in this configuration.

[chris haldeman]

Also need too point out there is no mm allowance. There is a hard upper limit with zero tolerance. Max over bore is .25 mm and carries a 15 pound weight penalty

[Sean - MiataCage]

Just a point to be made on this post, good post Rusty and fellow racers make mental note. I have had this tool used on my car after winning a race last year. My car passed but i was thinking to my self. This was not an accurate looking tool.  The tool i saw looked like just bumping it coming out of the plug hole would change the reading.

 

If any of you get dinged by a reading of the bore tool i would

1) ask that that take 2 or 3 readings in front of you to see if they can reproduce the result

2) have them test another vehicle that you feel pretty sure is bone stock

3) if you faill ask what the margin of error is or what is the range of pass fail

4) if you fail get weighed you are 15 lbs overweight you can go to .10 over with the extra 15lbs.

 

As I said i passed but i want thinking i could see this going bad.

I'm not a motor guy and have no idea what this tool looks like, but is there any way to improve upon it?  Can the tool itself be modified or should some Miata specific adaptor be made to make the repeatability more accurate?  We have a tremendous amount of resource and brain power on this forum, so if there is a way to improve it to make the results repeatable then let's look into it.

 

I applaud the tech efforts, hopefully we can all find a way to make it easier for them.

 

Sean

[Ron Alan]

So we had a car checked for bore and stroke...well bore  And we have a set of cams being shipped to see the Dr.  Any other tech? Penalties or warnings on bumping or poor driving? Protests?

 

Though I assume there was some type of timing issue based on what wasnt going on on race monitor...what other snafus occurred?

 

For those who attended...is this a good venue to hold a MAJOR?? Attendance seemed pretty light? 

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

I think the venue is good, just a bit remote, it is one of the farthest reaches in the Western Division.  I imagine Seattle will be similarly attended (which is also remote)  The facility is a motorsports country club which they improve every year,  they are also doing a repave this summer and I believe extending and or  modifying the track.   They had more than twice the attendance as last years National and was also very good for the AZ SCCA for survival.  I think it is important for the region.  There were some snafu's with timing and scoring,but in my opinion all got worked out in the nick of time.  We did get some crossover which I like, it is fun to meet other guys from Texas, Colorado and Utah etc although I would rather have 30 + cars.

 

They do not have a snack bar, but they did have a food truck and some vendors attend which gave it a more "pro"- "majors" feel, they have the nicest bathrooms and showers of any race track I have been too and I have been to many.  Some nice elevation changes and interesting tricky corners that provide some side by side racing.

 

The AZ region has some ironing out to do, but I can live with that.  They also pulled restrictors, scaled (although the scales were questionable... not consistent, part of the ironing out I previously mentioned)  had every one open hoods so people could have a look....

[FTodaro]

Only if you entered your car in this configuration.

I am just telling you what I was prepared to do, did not say it would fly.

[Bench Racer]

Rusty, Frank, Anyone, what does this measure bore with head on contraption look like?

There is a bore scissor tool contraption used for measuring snow mobile engines bore with head on. No way in hell it works for a Miata engine.

 

[Jim Drago]

I'm not a motor guy and have no idea what this tool looks like, but is there any way to improve upon it?  Can the tool itself be modified or should some Miata specific adaptor be made to make the repeatability more accurate?  We have a tremendous amount of resource and brain power on this forum, so if there is a way to improve it to make the results repeatable then let's look into it.
 
I applaud the tech efforts, hopefully we can all find a way to make it easier for them.
 
Sean

I applaud the effort as well!

This tool is not accurate at all, at least not for what we are trying to do. It is basically a snap gauge. You insert it through the plug hole, the arms extend out to the bore, you bring the arms back in vertically and back out through the plug hole. Then you open the tool and measure that spread with a caliper. There is just lots of room for error here. If you're looking to tell if someone is running STD or .040 over, no problem. When you are looking for a .010 or less type of number, not that accurate or easy IMO.

I have had this test done on me in 07 at Hallet and failed, I was .001 over bore( not sure where you buy those pistons , obviously wrong and no way they could measure that accurately, especially with those tools. I asked to let the car cool and remeasure, it was on spec then. More a difference of measurement than anything else.

Craig had this happen after COTA, mine measured right, his over. I know for a fact both bores are exactly the same size down to .00025. Both were standard bore. We were prepared to pull the head. I applaud tech, they did go back to the weight slips, Craig was 2422, so they let us go without pulling the head. We ran std bore/2400 again on Sunday as we would pull the head if needed.

Aaron Mcspadden I believe was DQ'ed for this as well at some point, He actually ended up pulling his head to prove the bore was STD. Not a good method IMO at all IMO. A qualified machinist could probably do this with somewhat repeat-ability, but not many others. Even then,if their measurement is off by more than .005, you will be non compliant.

Jim

[Mike Collins]

Also need too point out there is no mm allowance. There is a hard upper limit with zero tolerance. Max over bore is .25 mm and carries a 15 pound weight penalty

Not true  There is a tolerance for being "out of round" in the factory service manual.  You are allowed to be out by that much and still be legal.  But what do I know???  I only helped write the rules, and have been the Chief of Tech for SM in both SCCA and NASA....

[Jim Drago]

Not true  There is a tolerance for being "out of round" in the factory service manual.  You are allowed to be out by that much and still be legal.  But what do I know???  I only helped write the rules, and have been the Chief of Tech for SM in both SCCA and NASA....

I believe it is .006 if I remember correctly? If someone is that big, bore won't be their problem

[chris haldeman]

What I meant was there is a upper limit listed in the gcr for standard bore. Certainly not 1mm over

[chris haldeman]

3.273 pass 3.274 fails Scca has a zero tolerance approach too there rules

[chris haldeman]

Atleast I thought

[Johnny D]

  I only helped write the rules, and have been the Chief of Tech for SM in both SCCA and NASA....

 

I may have asked this before..

 

Has anyone writen/video, a manual of sorts for tech inspection for the volunteers ??

J~