38 replies to this topic

[jswitzer360]

OK from what I see and what I think your trying to say is that the 99 begins to lose torque at 5500 while the NA keeps on going ?? Correct? And in the case I can see your point john and it makes sense to build a 90-93 BC it would be cheaper and I would be getting a bit more outta my engine... BC I've heard that these 1.6's catch the 1.8s on the long straights

[jswitzer360]

Actually just looked at the graph again an the 02 is the one that begins to lose its torque above 5k... Sorry...in that case it looks like the 99 and the 1.6 are pretty much the same

[Parity]

"pssssst... " (in a low whispering voice) "search the word:parity"

[Johnny D]

This guys car has been for sale for a while. We have a classifieds too.

They say he's pretty good and the car has won a few races.

http://mazdaracers.c...ional-champion/

J~

[jswitzer360]

Lol johnny I'm not that new ... I know who he is and I've seen that car race... I don't think my kidneys are worth enough to buy that car hahaha

[dstevens]

You are going to spend the next few years learning how to race even if you are able to fund a high level arrive and drive program.  I wouldn't get too caught up in what car to get as long as it's clean with a track record. If you've never built a race car or have the tools to build one do yourself a favor and buy someones mid-pack or back marker car and get out there and start racing.  Or at least track days.  Chances are you'll wad it up while you're learning or one of your new on track pals will do it for you.  Or you might blow something up learning to work on it and not getting it quite right.  The most important thing about a starter car is that it's clean, safe, able to pass tech and reliable.  That said, were I buying one instead of working on the worlds longest SM build I'd get a 99 from someone that is getting out or upgrading.  It's likely going to be more than an NA but some of the NA parts are salvage only now and starting with a near 25 year old donor can be challenging.  For all intents and purposes a national caliber car is a 99+.  not to say the right person can't field a good NA, they can, but a this point the NA ship has sailed for high performance national cars for the most part.

[Ron Alan]

Does this thread pass the sniff test?? Coincidence?

[davew]

If you are going to build a 100% car it really matters very little what year car you start with. Assuming you start with equal cars. The truth is, you will be hard to find an equal car that is 10 years older. In actual practice, you will replace more parts when starting with a 1.6 car than an NB.

 

If you are not building a 100% car, then it depends much more on the condition of the donor. Example, start with a 100k mile NB and you can probably get away without replacing the engine. Start with a 150k mile 1990 and you will probably spend the money on an engine. Is the 1.6 price different enough to offset a $6000 pro motor? Maybe a $800 used motor? My point is, every situation is different.

 

I have said this 100 times. There is nothing like the satisfaction of racing a car that you built. But, you will spend 300 hours building the car. If you work 8 hours every Saturday and every Sunday, plus 2 hours every night, it will take you 3 months to build the car. Can you wait that long? Can you stick to that time structure or will it take you twice as long? When is the driver school in your area?

 

My advise, buy the best used car you can afford and learn how to race. 

 

Dave

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

IMO start with a 99+ car you will be happier in the long run. I think the 1.6 is a great car to get your driving skills to the top level and are alot of fun to drive (meaning on the edge) where the 99+are a little easier to drive ( more forgiving ).Also the 1.6 heat soaks on very hot days witch means you will lose a couple of hp where the 99+ cars not so much. Also the 1.6 requires constant dyno time to keep it at peak hp.

With a 99+ car you will be set so when your ready to go from a regional level to a national level you will already have the car to have!

Just look at what car all the top drivers are driving and there is your answer, no questions asked !

[FTodaro]

Let me add on to Dave's post I built my first car but then I rebuilt my first car, learning after i started racing of the things I did wrong or could do better. So My point is, if you buy a used car and not make it the BIG Purchase of building your first car, you can learn a few things about how you will do it when you are ready to really invest the time and money. Also if your first year or two is in a car that you feel you can afford to ball up, it takes some of the stress off the situation.

[jswitzer360]

Well that's kinda what I'm planning on I wanna build my own car simply BC I have the ability as I am a technician and just to know the ins and outs of my car.. As far as the year of the car I'm not too worried about it of course I asked the question BC all I see on you tube and what not are 99+ model cars and was wondering if the na's still had a good crowd.. I plan on at least building a somewhat spec miata ie partial cage seat and suspension and I plan on doing some hpde's and autocross with it for a little bit so that gives me time to learn...I'm not just going to buy a car build it and start this season... I plan on taking my time with it and learn everything I can so when its time for my first novice race I'll be comfortable... I plan on taking 2 years to do all this and for me that seems to be the right way

[Bench Racer]

I built my first car but then I rebuilt my first car, learning after i started racing of the things I did wrong or could do better.

Could you list the changes you made in an effort to support.

 

Other than the roll cage (fabed/bent to suite me) my car is self built from new sub-frames/control arms and all the other suspension stuff. My car is a NA 1.6. Today because of the torque/horsepower out of the 99 plus engines and less engine maintaince to keep peaked and some camber gains (I hear), I'd build a 99 plus car. Your plan sounds fine for a can-do guy that will start at something that dosen't require everything at the get-go. Truly a self new build will cost more, but the knowledge gained is a large. During your build, before roll cage, QD steering wheel, try sitting in many different seats, then temp locate saet, total driver flexability, left elbow room, now fab the roll cage.    

[DrDomm]

Here's a link to the next Eastern Conference Major...

 

https://www.motorspo...FEB2A6A9BE8D7B3

 

What year do you think you should buy/build?

[Danny Steyn]

jswitzer360 - welcome to our world and get ready to become addicted.

 

This is what I would do if I was in your position, because this is what I did when I started out in 2008....

 

The reason you are not going to win straight out the box, irrespective of any innate talent that you might posses, is that you do not have any seat time. This is what you have to overcome. Getting as much seat time for the least amount of time and money invested. Since you live in the SE, SCCA offers a really great ECR endurance series, with most races being 1-1/2 hours in length. When I started I signed up for every endurance weekend I could find, and some of these weekends had enduros and sprint races on the same weekend. This is how you get seat time.

 

Another way to do it is the way most of us do, we double or triple dip at race weekends. The wonderful Spec Miata allows you to race in SM, STL, and ITA/S (depending on year). So most of us are running 2 classes every weekend and that way we maximize our seat time for the money and time invested. 

 

Get a Traqmate data and video system so that you can immediately start comparing your data with guys faster than you (and in the SE almost all of us use Traqmate). Data more than anything else will quickly identify those spots (braking, turn-in, mid corner, exit etc.) where you can improve your lap times.

 

As to car ownership, I started renting from Tom at OPM and when I realized I loved it I had him build me my car, and he has built several for me over the years. IMO it is cheaper to do an arrive and drive than to own your own car. 

 

You are always welcome to come down to the OPM trailer at the Majors weekend, check out our cars, our approach to data sharing and check out the deal that Tom puts together for his racers

 

And now that Tracy does the catering, you have a chance of surviving lunch without spending your afternoon in the PortaPotty!!!

 

 

[jswitzer360]

Wow all I can say guys is thank you very much I asked a simple question and you guys have by far answered it... Makes me wanna be there on race day with u guys even more now knowing how close this group is... Once I find the right donor I will start a build thread if u guys wanna follow so u can tell me how I'm doing it wrong... Hahahaha.... I'll be at all the race days in the Atlanta region and I look forward to meeting all of you thanks again guys ur awesome.... And just to u let u know I've made my mind up and I'm going to be getting a 99 .... So watch out steyn.... I'm coming for ya hahahahaha

[FTodaro]

Could you list the changes you made in an effort to support.
 
Other than the roll cage (fabed/bent to suite me) my car is self built from new sub-frames/control arms and all the other suspension stuff. My car is a NA 1.6. Today because of the torque/horsepower out of the 99 plus engines and less engine maintaince to keep peaked and some camber gains (I hear), I'd build a 99 plus car. Your plan sounds fine for a can-do guy that will start at something that dosen't require everything at the get-go. Truly a self new build will cost more, but the knowledge gained is a large. During your build, before roll cage, QD steering wheel, try sitting in many different seats, then temp locate saet, total driver flexability, left elbow room, now fab the roll cage.

That is a long list because over the 4 years I have raced this car I have gone through and changed or modified most of the systems, going from an open diff to a Torsen, to using lock tight on the shocks. Lots of live and learn.

[RussMcB]

Danny's (and other's) advice above is great, especially regarding TraqMate data.  I'm always surprised to see my data overlays and how many places on the race track I could (and should) be going faster.  I think I'm close to the limits in every corner, but then see data that shows what a SM (and good driver) can do (and specifically where I'm not).  Traqmate data has been the fastest way I've been able to take the bigger chunks out of my lap times.

 

Pretty much everyone in the SE involved with SM are great, very willing to help new folks get up to speed and have as much fun as possible.  I hooked up with Racing Analytics when I started last year and they were a great resource.  All of the teams listed above (OPM, Panic, Tiley, East Street, etc.) are fantastic.  We're very lucky in SM, SEDiv.

 

This forum and Ask The Experts webinars are great, too.

[Chris101]

I went with a different approach myself.  Back in 2007 I was briefly considering building my own SM from scratch BUT was talked out of it by several other racers.  The logic made sense after discussion with several long-timers.  Much like  your 1st motorcyle, might not want to start with the nicest/newest one that you are going to be really upset about the 1st time you rub against another racer and get some scratches, scuffs and dents.   In my case I started out with a well used 1990 Miata that already had a few small dents (so it wasn't pristine when I bought it) but the price was right at $7000 so it was the perfect 'starter' Spec Miata.  That 'starter' Miata got me through my 1st 3 in a half years of racing, was involved in 4 additional scuffles (1 per year is how it worked out), had to get a new engine, trans, suspension, radiator and other tidbits (about $4800 additional spent on parts while in my ownership) and then I sold it to move up to a 95 1.8 BSI built (with much better cage) Miata instead.  What I found out, interestingly enough, is because I learned and spent so much time in a 1.6, I had a lot of adjusting to do in the 1.8 and never did get 100% used to all the changes (including a 4.3 torsen that I never had in the 1.6).   I talked to another racer who went from a 1.6, to an NA 1.8 and then to an NB 1.8 and said he had an adjustment periord as well to deal with (a bigger one going NA to NB).   So I guess in that respect, if you want an NB, best to start out with an NB as that will be what you are used to.   Interestingly enough, we've come 'full circle' and are back to a 1.6 NA (this time building ourselves) after selling my 1.8 NA last July so it will be interesting to see how it goes being back in a 1.6 NA again.

[Bad Rusty]

Buy a used car ready to race. Add data before you do anything else. Then, drive, drive and drive some more. There is no substitute for seat time with data, and then you can buy/build/rent a faster car when you are at 99% of your cars potential consistently. I dumb lucked into most of the above, but bought data too late, and still haven't reached the 99% number, more like 51%. Best of luck.

OH, bring a cooler full of beer every race, worth atleast a half second of free advice from your fellow competitors!