101 replies to this topic

[suck fumes]

If that happened in NASA they would have been suspended. They have really cracked down on contact penalties. SCCA seems to be more lenient for whatever reason.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Mike sorry to hear that your car that was totaled...  Been on the track with you many times never met you personally but you are one of the few drivers out of class I can say i truly feel comfortable with, you are a very courteous driver, never driving yourself right up into the middle of a spec miata fight.  You and Greg Vandersluis both  are always mindful of everyones interest on the track, hope when the sting of the weekend wears off we will see you back on track with us again.  Maybe with a spec miata next time...

[Todd Lamb]

Caveman I believe some of those claims, but the "Spelling Bee Chompion" is taking it a bit too (to? two?) far.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

If that happened in NASA they would have been suspended. They have really cracked down on contact penalties. SCCA seems to be more lenient for whatever reason.

Unless your a texan and you take out the  leaders at the national championships   then you get a slap on the wrist...  Nasa is tough on things one day and then not the next there is no consistency in either org.  The reason is its being handles by human beings, who have feelings and opinions etc etc.  sometimes they even have freinds... Keep in mind this guy that caused this is the guy that sends out the contigency money for the nasa races what do you think they are gonna do to him?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Caveman I believe some of those claims, but the "Spelling Bee Chompion" is taking it a bit too (to? two?) far.

 

Oh crap you have like 4 chompionships under your name i need to get to more just to catch up  

[jeopardyracing]

Kyle you might be referencing national racing between the clubs, but I actively race both clubs regionally (NASA Mid Atlantic and SCCA WDCR) and I consistently see NASA more rigorous on contact in our region. We just had a long SSM driver's meeting with the Stewards at MARRS 1 on exactly this topic and many SSM drivers exasperation with insufficient penalties for contact even after protests are filed by. In NASA, by contrast, I've seen two driver suspensions for (comparatively minor) contact that I and others thought were perfectly appropriate with the stewards initiating the action. I can't quite get my head around why there is such a difference between the two Clubs. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I have seen people penailized in nasa for silly things and seen them not penalize people for real things.  I have seen plenty of people pennalzed at nasa though that i will agree with.

 

I have also known people to get points in scca, so it does happen...

 

in both orgs it just depends on who is on the chopping block and who is doing the punshment, at the end of the day its still two human beings.  alot togher for most to penalize a good freind then someone they dont like.  simple as that...

 

If nasa was the magic answer we woudl all be racing there and of course nothign liek this would ever happen.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

i will also ad without seeing the video, it is a shame that no real penatly was handed out in this instance.  I cannot say Mikes intent with his post, but the way i take it is he would like to see SCCA get some continuity and crack down more, we all would if were in his shoes.  I have been tboned before and I wasnt happy, it was at a local nasa the penalty was the guy got a dq and he didnt get to race the next day, whoopie man did i ever feel vindicated.  

[jeopardyracing]

Kyle -  I've thought a lot about this, and one dynamic I have seen in SCCA is the Stewards saying "hey, you guys have to throw paper!!!" And of course you are right re humans: I think one limiting factor to that approach is exactly what you reference above - that many of us are friends and / or we 'want to get along' in the paddock. That means many of us are reluctant to throw paper unless the other party is already unfriendly from prior events! It works better, IMHO, to have a rule set that says 1) all drivers much report any contact or face sanctions and 2) the stewards will file actions for contact. That takes some of the burden off of the drivers. 

 

And with the benefit of two more seasons of racing, I quite agree that NASA is not a silver bullet. There is a different set of issues in NASA that bear on safety. This past weekend I was in a single class of 38 SSMs with SCCA. Next weekend, I only see 9 SMs registered so far for the NASA race which means 10-15 on track on race day. But that means mixed class racing every time I race SM with NASA, and then I see big speed / skill differentials with classes like PTE that can create some alarming episodes. 

 

So NASA is not a silver bullet, but in our region I much prefer the tone they set on these matters and I think the SCCA experience could be much improved by emulating at least some of them. In fact SCCA WDCR with NASA's rules/culture on contact would be my silver bullet regionally. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

my last comment on this publicaly feel free to pm me you like...

 

GL scca pulls anyone suspected of contact into the black flag area after the race, where you are not allowed to talk to the other driver only to a steward to explain your side of the the events, you then sit and wait while the steward asks the other driver the same questions then he makes a decision on what needs to be done, I feel this is apropriate enough IMO.  I have been pulled in before and ask what happened and what could you have done to avoid it, I said to the steward I hit him door to door in the corner, I could have decided not to race him for that corner but im here to race and all contact is unavoidable.  He heard the other guys story which i have no idea what the story was probaly the same as mine only he probably said it was his fault.  We didnt need to write paper, but it nice that my regions scca stewards are mindful that contact happens and there is a time and a place for more action.

[Bench Racer]

SCCA RELEASE AND WAIVER OF LIABILITY, ASSUMPTION OF RISK AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT APPLIES TO ALL SCCA EVENTS

 http://scca.cdn.race...nual Waiver.pdf

This ^ is what ALL folks singing and entering SCCA events should have read before singing at the event sign in shack. This is in clear black and white on the sign in sheet. Basically, if this would hold up in a court of law, no matter what happens, tough shit, to bad.

 

A couple three years ago at the green flag, I got asspacked while braking when a car ahead got turned sideways. At protest completion the SOM said, it was a racing incident, no shit little red riding hood, everything on track is a racing incident. Within the GCR, there are "Rules of the Road"/On Course Driver Conduct for drivers and Stewarts and Stewarts of the meet to follow. I'm not whinning, only stating historical SCCA facts. Why throw paper???

 

It wasn't to long ago, from my long distance perspective/reading there was a real issue at Summit Point with the SM class showing minimal respect for others and their equipment. From reading the last couple years, it seems to have been cleaned up. Great job folks.

[Jim Drago]

Mike
I am sure I speak for most of the SM guys who have run with you. You are one of the VERY few guys who races in SM and "gets it" You pass us where you can, seldom if ever pass us in a spot that will hold us up, whenever possible you wait as to not get in the middle of an ongoing battle etc. I am VERY thankful for the way you race us, in turn I try to always extend you the same courtesy as do many others. If only all interacted that way.
Very sorry about your car, glad you were not hurt.
Jim



( sorry was logged into a different acct fixing classified adds on previous post under Charlie Williams)

[LarryKing]

My God, I'm actually agreeing with Caveman. It really depends which NASA franchisee is holding the event as to how harshly they penalize. I've been clouted at a NASA race by a "frequent offender' only to be told "that's racin." I've also filed a protest for contact at a NCR SCCA event that was upheld and a penalty was issued.

 

A sincere apology goes a long way toward my forgiveness. Conversely, a blank stare and refusal to acknowledge their role in contact will cause me to throw paper and not worry that I won't be liked.

 

I do like that NASA mandate incident reports.

[jeopardyracing]

To me, the sport needs the deterrent effect of mandating contact reports so there is certain to be an official review at least. Apologies are good for things like chopping someone (like I chopped Todd Lamb in Friday practice this past weekend. Yes, I sought him out right after to apologize...) but we need a greater deterrent for low percentage or, as seems evident in this case, just unqualified unsafe driving.

[Jim Drago]

A sincere apology goes a long way toward my forgiveness. Conversely, a blank stare and refusal to acknowledge their role in contact will cause me to throw paper and not worry that I won't be liked.

I agree with this 100%, there is NO ONE on this board that has not done something stupid in a race car, most probably damaged another's car in the process. I am fine with a sincere apology. I have also noticed that when you are the car being hit and not at fault, that drivers more often than not seems to have a much shorter memory and forgets the dumb #$% they have done and takes an unearned moral high ground at times. We all make mistakes, if someone apologizes.. Let them apologize. If you have never done anything stupid go ahead and yell and scream if it makes you feel better. But if your guilty of doing something stupid as well at some point, just be quiet an accept their apology. It sucks, but being pissed off doesn't help, doesn't get your race or your money back.

As far as the situation at VIR, No idea what happened and it sounds like no apology, no common sense and dangerous.. above does not apply

[Bad Rusty]

Really sorry to hear about the big one, but really glad to hear about drivers walking away.

 

For what it's worth, I have just quit driving STL/ITS for this year for the reasons that lead to the above.

 

There are VERY good drivers in other classes, but there are more "not so good" drivers in the other classes compared to SM in my opinion.  Throw in the "HP Ego" and it's dangerous.

 

I know we need car counts for the clubs to survive, but at what expense to all of us?

 

Really sorry to hear about the post wreck attitude.  I know there are two sides to every story but wow....

 

Video please!

[25T4]

Guys as soon as I have the video I will post. I have better things to do then complain. Danny told me to follow this thru and I will to the extent I can. I have always tried to be mindful of the racing situation and as such I have tried to be courteous when running with you guys and I did it a lot when SSB was around. I have a ton of respect for the top drivers in SM. Damn toughest class I have seen to win in. Thanks for the kind words Jim.

 

Mike 

[zoomzoom22]

Video is here:

 

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

[David L]

WOW

[Danny Steyn]

Phelp's video shows it even better than mine, but this should give you another perspective of the incident, including the bumper cam showing the ensuing carnage