57 replies to this topic

[dstevens]

Can anyone explain how blueprinting the hubs is legally different from blueprinting the engine?  Somehow the whole argument seems familiar.

For starters, machining.  When one "blueprints" an engine one of the techniques is to match everything as much as possilble with material removal commonly used as a means to match parts in addition to reprofiling parts if required.  This is more or less a parts swap and not really a "bleuprint". Who is to say my NAPA OEM hubs don't have better bearings, or that my local bearing house could provide OEM type bearings that are better than what is available from Mazda right now.  Mazda doesn't make the bearings nor are they specific to the Miata and it's likely there may be multiple suppliers in order to keep parts in the supply chain.   and and tolerances in a part like that at that price point are not going to be consistent.   It's not any different than buying a case of parts and hand picking which parts are most to spec and using those.  Following Dewey's logic (such that it is) if I were to have some 1990 brand new hubs compared to the OEM replacement hubs shipping today they could be found non compliant.  However, as others have said, to what spec are these bearing measured and by what means?

[huttshipcrazy]

[Glenn Davis]

I solved this issue by buying 37 OEM front hubs.  I disassembled all of them and sent the balls to a lab where they measured the sphericity to 7 nm.  I got 6 good hubs from this process.  Since I only need 4 to get through the season, I will sell the other two at my cost.  Price for the pair is $4600.  I am making NO money on this.  I am just trying to help out other racers.

[Jim Boemler]

For starters, machining.  When one "blueprints" an engine one of the techniques is to match everything as much as possilble with material removal commonly used as a means to match parts in addition to reprofiling parts if required.  This is more or less a parts swap and not really a "bleuprint". Who is to say my NAPA OEM hubs don't have better bearings, or that my local bearing house could provide OEM type bearings that are better than what is available from Mazda right now.  Mazda doesn't make the bearings nor are they specific to the Miata and it's likely there may be multiple suppliers in order to keep parts in the supply chain.   and and tolerances in a part like that at that price point are not going to be consistent.   It's not any different than buying a case of parts and hand picking which parts are most to spec and using those.  Following Dewey's logic (such that it is) if I were to have some 1990 brand new hubs compared to the OEM replacement hubs shipping today they could be found non compliant.  However, as others have said, to what spec are these bearing measured and by what means?

You've proven my point.  You may not have been around for the question of whether "pro motors" were legal, but your argument is practically verbatim from that era.  I'm not arguing either side of it, BTW, just noting that it's the same old argument over again.

[Tom Sager]

This is one thread that might benefit from a left turn to the forbidden parity topic.  

[Brian Ghidinelli]

This is one thread that might benefit from a left turn to the forbidden parity topic.  

 

Or a Hitler reference, so it can be put out of its misery.

[dstevens]

You've proven my point.  You may not have been around for the question of whether "pro motors" were legal, but your argument is practically verbatim from that era.  I'm not arguing either side of it, BTW, just noting that it's the same old argument over again.

If you are talking about the Sunbelt days I was around.  I don't see how I'm proving your point.  A blueprint requires mods to the parts themselves.  This is the same core, unmodified with a different OEM size bearing.  For all we know this could be the same thing that a rebuilder that does parts store hubs uses.

[Jim Boemler]

Precisely the same argument as was used to legalize perfectly-weighted pistons.

[SaulSpeedwell]

Precisely the same argument as was used to legalize perfectly-weighted pistons.

 

And the argument is valid for precisely the same reasons as it was in 2001 (start of SM?), and 1990 (start of Showroom Stock Miatas?), and 1908 (the first time two guys raced a Model T and found out one was faster?).

 

So long as manufacturing tolerances allow for the possibility of "bin matching", there will always be an advantage in doing so.  "Pro" motors were "illegal" in Showroom Stock since the beginning.

 

The Boemler/Scheifler counterarguments that I recalled from the past always seemed to ignore two key points:

A.  That manufacturing tolerances were significant and common

B.  That bin-matching was undetectable

 

I never heard a valid argument for why Pro motors needed banned, nor a feasible solution for doing so.  

[ChrisA]

If you are talking about the Sunbelt days I was around.  I don't see how I'm proving your point.  A blueprint requires mods to the parts themselves.  This is the same core, unmodified with a different OEM size bearing.  For all we know this could be the same thing that a rebuilder that does parts store hubs uses.

"Different" might not be the correct word here. Let's say more uniformly OE sized bearings.

[Jim Boemler]

As I said earlier, I'm not arguing either side of this, just noting that it's a very old argument.  David loses, of course, for the same reasons his side lost the pro motor argument.

[MPR22]

Or a Hitler reference, so it can be put out of its misery.

Someone should do one of those Hitler parodies with him being told the 1.6  is not the car to have.  That would be hysterical, at least to me.  

 

 

[Bench Racer]

For those on the hyper side, this entire thread is a stirred pot re-hash from years ago.    http://vimeo.com/15788586

[suck fumes]

I doubt those hubs from daniels even had grease in them to spin that fast. And they were prob changed out every race weekend too because whatever dragless lubricant was in there wouldn't protect it long enough to last more than a weekend.

[john mueller]

I doubt those hubs from daniels even had grease in them to spin that fast. And they were prob changed out every race weekend too because whatever dragless lubricant was in there wouldn't protect it long enough to last more than a weekend.

 

Don't they only need to last 40min for the big races?  I watched a dude put ATF in his transmission for Championship race...  He told me his tests averaged 50min with ATF before they blow-up.  Budgets prevail everywhere!

[Mike Collins]

Been sitting this one out...

 

THEY ARE LEGAL....

 

Any other argument is beating the same dead horse OVER AND OVER AGAIN.....

[James York]

Been sitting this one out...

 

THEY ARE LEGAL....

 

Any other argument is beating the same dead horse OVER AND OVER AGAIN.....

[Brandon]

Wow!  All from a simple little question....

*reaches for the bat again*