53 replies to this topic

[LarryKing]

 

What cans of worms would be opened with this suggestion (supporting the update/backdate)?

Is that a "bad thing"?

 

Maybe not a "bad thing" and before I went to that much effort which may or may not be an "improvement" I think I'd rather just buy an MX-5.

[Danny Steyn]

So here is a question that begs to be asked. Are any of the faster drivers willing to commit to the SM-5 class as it stands in the next two to three years, so that we populate it with some competition, and evolve a separate class simultaneously with SM?

[Jim Drago]

So here is a question that begs to be asked. Are any of the faster drivers willing to commit to the SM-5 class as it stands in the next two to three years, so that we populate it with some competition, and evolve a separate class simultaneously with SM?

 

I am very content where I am. Sm is better now than EVER before, despite the nay sayers. Yes the costs are more and a $10,000 car can not win. But once invested in a "good" car, the operational costs are very similar to what they were in mid 00's.. In most cases, a good Sm car holds its value. Many of our cars( and other reputable builders) sell for mid to high 20's. If you look at that, using the car for 2-3 seasons and geting back 2/3 of the purchase price is not that bad of a deal.   

 

 I have fielded the following questions from more than I can remember:

 

Why didnt you particpate in the shoot out and run MX5 cup?

A:  SM is much better competition, far less money and less travel and I could care less about being "pro" or being on TV

 

Why dont you do grand am and or World Challenge?

Same as above, less competition, way more money and travel. Then adding in team mate which  usually has to pay more than his/her fair share and can't really drive very well.  The contact seems way worse than Sm ever has been.  You are racing a lot of people with the means top pay, but nnot the ability to drive. huge talent disparity from the best to worse driver there.

[suck fumes]

I agree with that. Grand am and other "pro" series are WAY over rated. The top drivers in SM and SRF could run circles around most of the "pro" drivers given the same car and running back to back. The amount of money they spend to get a bottle of champagne and a metal is crazy. But yet some people think if you aren't running "pro" then you must not be very good.

MX5 cars would be interesting to run in SM, yah they have a high initial cost but once you build it its not any more expensive to maintain it. Eventually the class will have to grow but I don't see very many people around here dropping their fast 99's to get a 2006 $10k donor and start over.

To bad the class now doesn't have a Dyno max limit like all the other NASA classes do. Might keep the cost more reasonable.

[Mike Collins]

I own both...I wrote the SM5 rules.  When the rules were written it was to have an affordable landing place for the Playboy Cup cars when that series ends.  The rules "fixed" lots of the gray area's in the SM rules AND SM5 has sealed engines.

 

The SM5 Rules were not written as an entree into SM.  I know that an uncorked 99 is as fast if not faster than my SM5.  99Sm's are as fast if not faster than my car in T4 trim...

 

It would be easy to get lap time parity with uncorked 1.8 cars....  However keep in mind the '06+ has ABS....

 

Do I see SM5 incorporated into SM?  I do.... IN THE FUTURE...or it could be uncorked SM's incorporated into SM5, the membership will need to decide.....

[Mike Collins]

Eventually the class will have to grow but I don't see very many people around here dropping their fast 99's to get a 2006 $10k donor and start over.

 

 

donors are NOT $10,000.  My last donor was $1325.00  And the one before that was $3,500...  They are out there....

[Mitch Reading]

Jim Drago, well said and I concur. 

 

Everyone has different goals and perspectives here, which is somewhat amazing in its own right... supporting the large basis of the class.  It is not all "aspiring pros", or budget weekend guys, or those in between... but SM serves all the above. 

 

My perspective...

 

As a former SM car owner, now arrive and drive guy who will buy another racecar at some point, my priorities are to race and invest where the most competition exists for my budget.  It is my opinion that far and away spec miata offers the highest level of compeition per dollar and further, that competition has grown stronger and closer in equality in recent years.  I have a lot of friends running Porsches, and I would LOVE to justify going back to PCA... but there is little justification other than ego.  More of my PCA buddies come to SM than vice versa, some run both. 

 

Thinking about succession is prudent, and a fun topic over beers.  Guys like to stoke the fire, inferring that Mazda won't support an older class, etc... but I have yet to see any empirical evidence to support this notion.  I have confidence that the CRB and guys with a lot more invested (Danny, Jim, Dave, etc) will blow the whistle should Mazda want to put the brakes on the support and enthusiasm for the class as it sits today.   Whenever I read one of the "sky is falling" posts I simply give thought to the motivation behind the post. 

 

In my opinion, there is not a strong correlation between newbie racers coming to a class because they like the aesthetics of a car.  I would guess that newbies are drawn to the class because of the competition and cost.  True racers don't give a crap about the marquee (or atleast it is not the first priority), the car is simply an applicance to go win. 

 

The perception that the class may continue to evolve with different "car of the year" keeps guys like Vic and myself from making long term investment, which may not be the best.   

 

Keep the class as stable and transparent as possible, and it will continue to thrive. 

[Johnny D]

IMO, I think there is a slow migration to the newer cars.

 

Drivers..

asking what's the best car are pointed to newer

that crashed, mostly build a newer car

after a few years, sell their car for newer.

 

I can see NA's are bread and butter for some regions so cutting them isn't going to happen soon.

 

But it will get there and the MX-5 will be added.

 

But my eyes and ears are wide open for the long term plan

J~

[LarryKing]

To me, bigger than any parity/multi-gen issues is the lack of a true spec. Too much performance variation between the haves and have nots. There are simply too many "tech-shed legal" tricks in this class. Too many opportunities to buy performance.  This is not how it was supposed to be. (driver's class vs. wallet class)

 

I use to join the chorus of ridicule aimed at those who warned of rules-creep. Now I see they were right. 

 

What is most attractive to me about the SM5 class - sealed everything.

[G.Obadia]

I am here and waiting for you Chumps  Hurry the heck up please.

[Jim Drago]

To me, bigger than any parity/multi-gen issues is the lack of a true spec. Too much performance variation between the haves and have nots. There are simply too many "tech-shed legal" tricks in this class. Too many opportunities to buy performance.  This is not how it was supposed to be. (driver's class vs. wallet class)

 

I use to join the chorus of ridicule aimed at those who warned of rules-creep. Now I see they were right. 

 

What is most attractive to me about the SM5 class - sealed everything.

 

 Sealing keeps honest people honest!  Seals work kind of like our gun laws. 

[LarryKing]

Because you can't stop all cheating, let's not stop any.

[Johnny D]

So what's stopping you from running SM5?

 

Let face it, SM has no parity and people cheating ALL the time, geez.

J~

[Johnny D]

I'll pick on everyone..

Jim, why do you run STL instead of SM5 ?

Too far off the SM setup?

J~

[Jim Drago]

Because you can't stop all cheating, let's not stop any.

 

I dont think we have the cheating now that many imply or feel is going on. I have not had that feeling in a long time as a matter of fact.  Good people who come to compete do not want to cheat.  People who cheat will always cheat, Period.  I have said that for years. Most want to kick your ass withiin the same rules and not cheat. Seals, no seals I really don't care. But if "sealed' motors are legal and not opened up, speced and measured like SM engines are.. It is a complete waste of time.  there needs to be specs and measurements.

 

I dont run SM5 as there is no runoffs, STL in same car is far more cost effetive.  I am 'planning" on building an 06+ STL car though, have not started yet though.

Jim

[Johnny D]

So I can see why it's not going anywhere when people don't run it because of the runnoffs and they don't have it at the runnoffs because of the turnout.

J~

[LarryKing]

"Cheating" is a poor choice of words, because it's not cheating if you can't get caught. My point being there are too many gray areas that can be exploited in the current rule set and too many opportunities for development.

 

Johnny, do we want an open discussion of ideas here, or should I just agree with everyone?

[ChrisA]

"Cheating" is a poor choice of words, because it's not cheating if you can't get caught. My point being there are too many gray areas that can be exploited in the current rule set and too many opportunities

The only way you are to get what you want is if Mazda supplies & maintains the cars for the drivers, somewhat like the Skip Barber series.

[steve]

As someone running SSM, yes, please phase out the 1.6

[James York]

"Cheating" is a poor choice of words, because it's not cheating if you can't get caught. 

Cheating is cheating whether you are caught or not.  I for one have never seen the front runners as close as they are today and feel comfortable of their legality.

 

 My point being there are too many gray areas that can be exploited in the current rule set and too many opportunities for development.

 

 

Do you have examples?  Or is this just speculation and/or hearsay?  I would like to know what you feel is being exploited.