54 replies to this topic

[tripplej93]

I just returned from a great weekend at Thunderhill.   I have been noticing some new people coming into the class, which is fantastic, but also see what I see as some classic errors being made by some of those newbies.   Since I was working on several different cars, with basically every possible Spec Miata engine configuration and had AIM data on all of them, I wanted to share some thoughts and experiences.

 

My big concern, for beginners, is the obsession with pro built motors.   When you are starting, all you are doing is wearing out your pro built motor.   Your two priorities need to be learning how to set up the car (and Jim Daniels article on this web site is fantastic, shake his hand and thank him when you run into him, what a public service he performed!)  and learning how to drive the car.   Before I spent a dime on a pro- built motor, I would spend money on alignment equipment (strings are fine, not expensive),  Scales (a bit more money but still much cheaper than your pro built motors), and test days.  I would also buy a Data Acquisition long before I bought a pro built motor because it can be an amazing tool when you learn to use it.   LOL, I might buy it before scales and ask to borrow my friends scales instead, lol, or just make sure I kept good records at tech.   You can always make some changes and roll over the tech scales (sometimes they are even accurate!).

 

The guys who are kicking your butt are NOT doing so  because they have better motors, it is because they have better set up cars and can drive a Spec Miata better.   When you are within a second of Drago, Stein, Drennan, Jordan (have to get that in now, lol) then worry about a motor, until then worry about car set up and your own skills.   Put any of the front running guys in your car, give them a few hours to set it up and they will kick your butt.  

 

Also, regarding which car is best, I think it depends on the objective.   As a learning tool, I 100% believe a good, safe, solid 1.6 is best.   It is harder to drive fast, but with light weight it is easier on tires, brakes, etc, and to go fast you need to grab it by the neck and really DRIVE it.   Make a 1600 go fast and you can step into a 1.8L of any year range and look like a hero and not break a sweat.   They are cheap because no one thinks they are competitive BUT we  had a young kid, 4th race EVER, qualify our 1.6 in 4th yesterday at T-hill in a 21 car field.   Also, almost every data session I look at, and I was working on data this weekend with a '01, '94, and two 1.6 motors and almost every session the 1.6's had the highest top speeds, gps measured.  And our 1.6 was a little slower than the other 1.6 (pains me to say that, lol). 

 

I will say a couple of notes on top speed are in order here too, as it relates to pro built motors.   The highest top speed car I looked at had the slowest lap times.   Joey, who won BOTH races, generally had the slowest top speeds (maybe because he led every lap of both races so had no draft help but still).   The point here is Joey's car and our 1.6 are both set up to get the most out of the drivers skill sets.   There is no magic, just hard work, trial and error (God do we make lots of errors getting to the front but we usually learn from the errors!).  Try stuff and see what works.   

 

I also want to talk about tires for a minute too.   Same story as Motors.   When you get to the last second from the point, then blow all your money on tires to go along with your new pro motor.   Until then, run them until they cord.   Yes, we corded at least two tires this weekend on the 1.6 car because our rookie is not quite fast enough yet to ask him to throw new tires at the car.   He is doing great on Joey's hand me downs.  Like I said, qualified 4th out of 21 on tires with at least 8 heat cycles on them (Toyo RR's).   Yes, in my experience new tires are a little faster for a few laps, but just a LITTLE faster.   I point this out just so you can see we practice what we preach when it comes to tires.  Our car at the front gets more tires because there is more on the line, but we won two races on one set of new tires this weekend  The other car just the take offs from Joey's car and would not have won with new tires anyway.   Make friends with the front running competitors, or the tire guy, because  you might be able to get some pretty good take offs.   Been there, done that.

 

Also, most people at the front are very helpful.   They remember what it is like to start, and always want new people to share their passion.   Feel free to ask away.   Some are more generous than others, but most will at least help a little.   I know that I am very generous with Data as long as it is a two way street.    I let one competitor download our AIM data directly from our car so he can go home and see where he needs to improve.   I am not sure I would do that for Dodge or Drennan (LOL) but would certainly work with anyone struggling to get them close.   Of course it helps to have the same data system so my advice is to use whatever your friends are using, and if you race where we do and want to get on our Data co-op that means AIM, but you can pick up a Solo pretty cheap that is a great place to start.   It will at least give min and max speeds, speed data traces, enough to do some good comparisons.

 

OK, enough of the soap box, but I want lots of good racers spending their limited resources in the most efficient way, based upon my years of doing this.   Sorry engine guys, sorry tire guys, but you will end up making MORE money in the long run if we get the newbies on the right path.

 

Good luck, and come by and say "hi" at that track.

 

Jim Jordan

 

[Danny Steyn]

Great post Jim - spot on with every item - great advice for ALL

[Ron Alan]

Well said Jim!!

 

I cant tell you how many times I've preached this same sermon to newbies...who want to get caught up in the arms race right out of the gate! Patience, seat time and feedback(data or at minimum predictive timer)will move you farther forward in the field faster than any power or speed secret you've read about! And anyone who doubts what Jim Jordan has to offer...just google his track record! Also, his offer to help is 100% genuine...I watched it first hand this weekend!!

[tripplej93]

Thanks Danny and Ron.   It was fun working with both of you and various times, and you two are both examples of personal generosity that I have observed and experienced.  It just pains me to see young racers buying a hot motor yet not know how to change their toe, how corner weights change handling, or know how to use data.   Make laps, make changes, test, then make some more laps and changes.

 

And if you ever want to rent a car on short notice, Ron has a pretty fast 1.8L NA....... Thanks for not only keeping us in the game but making it possible for us to be in the lead of the Mazda Teen Challenge.

[DrDomm]

Very good advice.  Only problem is that you can't prohibit other newbies/novices from getting the pro motor and new tires.  Suddenly, you're at a disadvantage to the other newbies/novices, and a high mid-pack finish (10th out of 30) becomes a low mid-pack finish (20th out of 30).  Your ego can only take this for so long.  You start questioning your ability/lose confidence.  Devil's Advocate...just saying.

[CWright]

Very good advice.  Only problem is that you can't prohibit other newbies/novices from getting the pro motor and new tires.  Suddenly, you're at a disadvantage to the other newbies/novices, and a high mid-pack finish (10th out of 30) becomes a low mid-pack finish (20th out of 30).  Your ego can only take this for so long.  You start questioning your ability/lose confidence.  Devil's Advocate...just saying.

 

But how awesome is it when you beat the privileged noobs with your rust bucket ghetto special?  My ego can take that all day...lol

 

To the op: thanks for the advice!  I needed to hear that.

 

C

 

edit: thanked op for good adivce

[Danny Steyn]

Actually Dr Domm, This is where they are HURTING themselves without really knowing it.

 

back in my motocross days, after several successful seasons, in 1977 I got sponsored by Suzuki. They gave me bikes, parts and support. Unfortunately that year the bikes were just dogs. They would not hunt. I was used to getting hole-shots, but that year I couldn't break into the top 10 into turn 1. No matter what we did to that bike it was slow. So I made up time in the braking, in the whoops, in the jumps anywhere I could, and finished the year in 5th place. the next year I turned down their bikes and bought my own Kawasaki's. They were competitive, and that season I won 15 out of 16 races, not because I had more power, but because I had become so much of a better rider due to being down on power teh previous season and learning how to go fast without the motor.  

 

IMHO getting a really fast motor early on will absolutely mask your driving weaknesses. Do as Jim says, learn how to get speed everywhere else except the straight line, do that unitl your data says you are the fastest driver through every turn, and they get the motor and you will be unbeatable!

[davew]

I have this conversation several times a week. Both, because I run a shop specializing in Spec Miata, but also because I wrote the book. If you notice in the book, the chapters on engine performance are at the end. Horsepower is the last thing a beginer needs to think about.

 

Several years ago, Jim Drago ran his car at Road America with and without the restrictor plate. I forget the exact numbers, but something like 12 horsepower got him a second of lap time. Road America is 4 miles long, so comparing a more typical 2 mile track will show one half seconds for 12 horsepower. Maybe Jim remembers the exact numbers.

 

If you are 3 seconds off the pace, you would need 40-50 horsepower to close the gap. Not very realistic in our cars.

 

Many years ago, I did a bunch of math. Our typical american road course is 2 miles long with 1:30 lap times in our cars. Going only 3 mph faster at the apex of each corner will net you a 0ne second faster lap time. No extra power or wiz-bang parts. Just 3 mph at the corner.

 

If you are a 100% driver with an 80% car, you will win most races against 100% cars with 80% drivers. The most important nut is still the one behind the wheel

 

Dave

[Bench Racer]

Adding to the posts (most posts) within this thread. Last time at the Farm, I was 3 1/2 seconds off the Q1 position. I had RA1 tires with many heat cycles, I have a good 1.6 motor and I have a 72 year young driver. Put new SM6's on the next day and was slower. The driver knows why he is 3 1/2 seconds off the lead dog and it's not the tires, set up or motor. It would be the spacer between the seat and steering wheel.

[mazdaspd]

Just out of curiosity, what is the horsepower difference at the wheels between a strong pro motor and a relatively healthy stock street car motor? 

[Ron Alan]

Just out of curiosity, what is the horsepower difference at the wheels between a strong pro motor and a relatively healthy stock street car motor? 

I will use the 1.6 as an example because have seen a lot more of these out west. Have seen lower mile street stock motors come in at maybe 110hp. An average fresh stock motor(Pro...if you want to call it that)will be around 115hp. But you can also be as far apart as 25-30hp between a real dud and a screamer! Remember...as a giant air pump there are many items the air flows through from the begging to the end...motor is just 1 of them 

[davew]

Eliminating an engine that is not running properly, I have seen 1.6 run as low as 105 with no tuning. Put the typical parts on that engine (good exhaust, intake, timing, fuel pressure) and you will usually end up around 115 without touching the internals. Typical pro built 1.6 is around 122. Outstanding legal, 125. Anything above that would be questioning legality, IMHO.

 

Horsepower is the last function in the "go fast" equation. As Ron said, the engine is only one factor in that function.

 

Dave

[mazdaspd]

Thanks for the replies.

 

As far as going faster is concerned, obviously the number one factor is the driver as many have already said in this thread. I am at the point of driving where every time I go out on the track I make improvements lap time wise and feel more and more comfortable in the car. This is all without tweaking the cars alignment or cross weights. I had the car set up initially and have left it the way it is and I still continue to make improvements as a driver.

 

I feel that the car handles well and obviously still has alot left in it, in its current configuration. At what point should I start making and learning how to do setup changes, because as has been mentioned in this thread the setup is critical to getting the most out of the car.

 

I simply use an app on my phone for lap timing. Would a data system be the the next thing I should invest in to help become a better driver?

[Bench Racer]

Thanks for the replies.
 At what point should I start making and learning how to do setup changes, because as has been mentioned in this thread the setup is critical to getting the most out of the car.

There is a set-up guide written by Jim Daniels within the "downloads" section of this site.
 

[Danny Steyn]

Mazdaspd - I am the biggest fan of data systems. They are the ultimate lie detectors. There is NO WAY I would be where I am if I had not immediately started out with a data system. The first weekend I used it was my first race at VIR and both Todd Lamb and Mat Pombo shared data with me and I immediately saw where I was slow and what I needed to do to bring down my lap times. The sooner you do it, the shorter your learning curve will be in ultimately it will save you time and money in terms of track time, tires, accidents and more. You need to know what you are shooting for at every turn.

 

• Braking point
• Turn in point
• Braking amount and brake release point
• Mid corner min speed
• Track out point
• Wide Open Throttle application point etc
• Speed at reference points around the track

 

At any race track, just 5 minutes with a faster driver willing to share data with you, (and most are in my experience) will immediately show you where you are losing time, but more importantly it will show you exactly how to gain it back

 

When choosing a data system the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO GET THE SAME SYSTEM THAT EVERYONE AT YOUR TRACK IS USING. A data system will not help one bit if you cannot compare your data with someone else's data.

 

I use Traqmate and here in the South East it is the default data system and I share my data with just about everyone who asks. 

[davew]

Assuming the car is OK. Not way out of allignemnt or has loose parts etc. you should concentrate on driving only, until you are able to drive an entire session within 1 second of your best lap for that session. Do not worry about your personal best, or the lap record, if the track conditions and your ability will give you a 1:32.5. You should be capable of running 12+ laps between a 1;32.5 and a 1:33.5. Untill you are able to be consistent, leave the car alone.

 

Do not fall into this trap; The track record holder did a 29.0, I just did a 29.5. He beat me by 45 seconds!!!!!????? How does that work? The track record holder did 20 laps between 29.0 and 29.7. He hit traffic once and slowed to a 30.8. While you did a 29.5, your second best lap was a 30.7. you also did a 34.8, a 32.7 and a 44.6 when you drove off the track. You are not 0.5 seconds off the pace. You are 45 seconds off the pace. Learn to be consistent and stay within your current skill level before trying to get to the next step.

 

What Danny said about choosing a data system is true. Traqmate is a great product. I have 2 of them sitting on the floor (for sale by the way) because we primarily use AIM for data. Pick what your friends use. Remember a data system is nothing more than a gauge with a memory. It will not make you faster unless you 1- Install it, 2- down load it, 3-look at it, 4- interprit it, and the hardest part 5- make the necessary changes in your driving. If you are not willing to do all the steps, you bought an expensive lap timer!

 

Dave

[tripplej93]

Joey still gives Danny so much credit and appreciation for getting him up to speed so quickly at the runoffs last year because of the way Danny shared his data.  And Dave is completely correct, get a data system in the same "family" with the guys you are wanting to share data with.   We have used AIM for several years and I am relatively fluent in it.   The entry level but basic, usable for beginners in the AIM family is a Solo.   It is a stand alone "laptimer" but gives GPS based track mapping, min/max speed data that is extremely useful for driving development.   It acquires enough data and might be cheap enough to use in parallel to a full dash system like trackmaster.   We do session by session track overlays with each driver comparing their speed graphs vs track maps, min max speeds, etc.   IMHO that is part of the reason our new guy Will Rodgers has been so quick so quickly.   Still pumped he qualified 4th overall at T-hill on Sunday!

 

As far as setting alignment and just driving..... you really need to check your toe settings often.   Hit a curb wrong, take an off course excursion, and chances are your alignment is not what you think it is.   

 

Danny's bike story is so good too.   Nothing like lack of power to teach you how to drive harder in the corners.    When you finally get power, you will be untouchable.   

[Todd Green]

Do not fall into this trap; The track record holder did a 29.0, I just did a 29.5. He beat me by 45 seconds!!!!!????? How does that work? The track record holder did 20 laps between 29.0 and 29.7. He hit traffic once and slowed to a 30.8. While you did a 29.5, your second best lap was a 30.7. you also did a 34.8, a 32.7 and a 44.6 when you drove off the track. You are not 0.5 seconds off the pace. You are 45 seconds off the pace. Learn to be consistent and stay within your current skill level before trying to get to the next step.

That advice right there is worth its (virtual) weight in gold! Most new drivers fail to understand the importance of consistency.

[Keith Novak]

I was told all the above when I started racing spec miata.  I have become much faster since and if I had listened then, it would have saved me many thousands of dollars in the process and probably a whole lot of time too.

 

I think the JD setup guide does a good job of describing how to get the car aligned and balanced, but doesn't do much to describe how to tune it to address specific issues.  Comparing data to others can be really useful to objectively evaluate what you are doing well and where you're not.  I was very surprised to find that I was fast where I thought I was slow and vise versa.  What I didn't know was what I was doing completely wrong until friends told me how to drive a miata.  (Roll on the throttle?  There's your problem.  It has no power so you need to treat it like an on/off switch, etc.)

 

As far as setup development for a novice driver, my developmental experience had a lot to do with learning to actively rotate the car to get much higher corner speeds:

• Phase 1:  I really don't know what the heck I'm doing.  I started out with a car that had understeer on corner entry (driver issue) and neutral handling characteristics mid corner to exit.  This would allow me to slide the car predictably to the edge of the track without rotating the car and convince me I was very fast but had bad motor and tires making me go really slow. (lots of money wasted at this phase)
• Phase 2:  Better understanding of car dynamics in a real rather than classroom sense.  I was taught lift throttle rotation to point the front in and use GAS GAS GAS! to track a tighter line with much more speed.  (At this point, the light bulb came on.)
• Phase 3:  Practice rotation:  I forgot about motor and bought strings, scales, and a cheap old tire machine to practice with lots of ratty old tires.  I experimented with significant changes in suspension and tire pressures to see what each would do to the handling.
• Phase 4:  Use setup as a crutch to help where I was deficient.  I found a suspension setup that really made the car want to turn in aggressively but it was also quite a handful in general. Toe 1/8 out in front and 1/16 out in rear does pretty well for this.  It can be frightening.  (Lots more ratty tires needed to practice not going agricultural.)  This allowed me to become familiar with the car sliding in all areas of the corner, and lots of practice catching the back end. 
• Phase 5:  Refine the driving and less just trying to hold on.  This is where I am now.  With a lot higher comfort level managing a car pushed over the edge, I'm dialing back the radical instability and working more on rotating the car with speed and skill.  Now I'm chasing 1/10ths in specific corners rather than seconds and starting to finally see a reason for better tires and more motor.  Prior to that it was a waste.

First I didn't know what I was doing at all.  Then I had to get better at doing it right but I got into trouble at the limit so I made it easier to find the limit.  Now I'm making it more controllable and using the skillsl I've learned through the process.  This is just my own personal story but I wouldn't have known what to tweak on the suspension until I knew what I was trying to fix. 

 

[davew]

Do not confuse "playing with the set-up" with maintaining the allignment. Keep the allignment the same for every session unless you are in a test/tune mode. Check your allignment and return it to baseline on a regular basis. We check toe at least once a day at the track. As you become more aware of what the car is telling you, you will be able to tell the instant the setup has changed and how YOU changed it.

 

Dave