54 replies to this topic

[davew]

We qualify by a single lap, but the race is who does 20 laps the fastest. No prize money for fastest race lap.

 

Dave

[Alberto]

Very good advice.  Only problem is that you can't prohibit other newbies/novices from getting the pro motor and new tires.  Suddenly, you're at a disadvantage to the other newbies/novices, and a high mid-pack finish (10th out of 30) becomes a low mid-pack finish (20th out of 30).  Your ego can only take this for so long.  You start questioning your ability/lose confidence.  Devil's Advocate...just saying.

 

Yep.  I experienced a lot of that last season.  Some of this season also since I haven't been able to get to the track as much as I'd like.

 

 

Actually Dr Domm, This is where they are HURTING themselves without really knowing it.

 

... but because I had become so much of a better rider due to being down on power teh previous season and learning how to go fast without the motor.  

 

IMHO getting a really fast motor early on will absolutely mask your driving weaknesses. Do as Jim says, learn how to get speed everywhere else except the straight line, do that unitl your data says you are the fastest driver through every turn, and they get the motor and you will be unbeatable!

 

While I agree, here's a counter point.

 

That helps to some degree but the critical element there is getting enough seat time to make that happen.  My 1st and 2nd season, I was routinely chasing and staying with another newbie that had dyno'ed 115 rwhp to my 107 rwhp and I could hound him all race but could never make a pass stick.  Getting a "pro" motor or head puts you on "on par" and helps eliminate a variable and hang with the faster guys so you can learn following them.

 

 

I will use the 1.6 as an example because have seen a lot more of these out west. Have seen lower mile street stock motors come in at maybe 110hp. An average fresh stock motor(Pro...if you want to call it that)will be around 115hp. But you can also be as far apart as 25-30hp between a real dud and a screamer! Remember...as a giant air pump there are many items the air flows through from the begging to the end...motor is just 1 of them 

 

Ron, For reference, at the end of the first season, Brandon, Gibson, Cliff and I dyno'ed our cars at MCE.  After tuning, my unopened 91k mile street motor made 107 rwhp.  Gibson made 99.  Brandon was somewhere around my numbers.  Cliff was 115.  All after tuning.  Most of us needed a pro head or full motor to hit the 115 number.

 

 

Assuming the car is OK. Not way out of allignemnt or has loose parts etc. you should concentrate on driving only, until you are able to drive an entire session within 1 second of your best lap for that session. Do not worry about your personal best, or the lap record, if the track conditions and your ability will give you a 1:32.5. You should be capable of running 12+ laps between a 1;32.5 and a 1:33.5. Untill you are able to be consistent, leave the car alone.

 

Do not fall into this trap; The track record holder did a 29.0, I just did a 29.5. He beat me by 45 seconds!!!!!????? How does that work? The track record holder did 20 laps between 29.0 and 29.7. He hit traffic once and slowed to a 30.8. While you did a 29.5, your second best lap was a 30.7. you also did a 34.8, a 32.7 and a 44.6 when you drove off the track. You are not 0.5 seconds off the pace. You are 45 seconds off the pace. Learn to be consistent and stay within your current skill level before trying to get to the next step.

 

What Danny said about choosing a data system is true. Traqmate is a great product. I have 2 of them sitting on the floor (for sale by the way) because we primarily use AIM for data. Pick what your friends use. Remember a data system is nothing more than a gauge with a memory. It will not make you faster unless you 1- Install it, 2- down load it, 3-look at it, 4- interprit it, and the hardest part 5- make the necessary changes in your driving. If you are not willing to do all the steps, you bought an expensive lap timer!

 

Dave

 

What he said...  Driving consistently is a lot harder than it sounds.  I'm still working at that.  I managed to get a single 2:12.x lap in at Thunderhill but the vast majority of my laps were a second off of that.

 

Data makes a very nice difference but I'd recommend to KISS.  I started with a Traqmate that I struggled to try and learn to use.  I eventually gave up and just got a simple predictive lap timer (AIM Solo).  It provides immediate feedback that can leverage from one lap to another in the same session.  Looking at the data after the fact has not been as helpful to me.  Data after the fact wouldn't tell me that I lost 4 tenths by hitting the curbing at the inside of 3.  The real-time predictive did.  The AIM Solo does have data but I have not yet taken the time to learn to use it well

 

 

I'd caution against recommending to setup your own car.  Although it is a useful bit of knowledge, it is difficult.  I found it far easier to have a GOOD shop (TFB) setup the car with a setup that fit my experience level and then focus on improving my line, skill and getting seat time. 

 

 

Before I decided to address the motor in my car, I put JohnnyD in the car and sent him out to do a practice session.  Once I was able to routinely hit the lap time he set in my car, I figured it was time for a better motor.  Was it the right decision?  Not sure.  Would I have improved more if I had been able to keep up with faster drivers?  Not sure.  I definitely would have been able to learn to be more consistent and get faster lap times if I could get more seat time.  Ultimately, seat time (practice, practice, practice), a good setup and the predictive lap timer have been the 3 most impact-full items in my improvement.  Lack of seat time resulting in the biggest negative impact...

 

 

 

Good thread.  Hoping to learn more from a continued discussion. Good question below that I'd like to hear more opinions on - At what point should one start making setup changes?

[wgroves]

Thank you Jim    

 

Very good advise.  I can not justify the cost of motor upgrades.   But I plan to make the best car possible and work hard to improve my driving skills.   I am racing for the sport, to learn and have fun.     Thanks Bill

[DrDomm]

Alberto, thank you.  Finally someone admits that a competitive motor helps level the playing field. 

 

Does driving down on horsepower make you a better driver?  Hell yeah, but you won't build confidence by giving the excuse, "I'd be faster (or finish higher) if I had more power" after every race.  Eventually you want to see results.

 

Anyway, I think setup/balance is number one.  That will give you the comfort to get a good track/car/racing experience.  Add a "competitive" motor to get good results, and build confidence.  Sadly, tires don't last forever either...though I'm the one running races on 8-12+ heat cycles.  I hate throwing away something that still works.

 

(When I go to races there are many multi-car SM teams.  I assume that those cars have good setups with experienced drivers.  I know that nearly all of them have "pro" motors.  And I see stickers and low HC tires on many cars.  I'm just saying at some point most of us have to keep up with the Jones's if we want reasonable results.  Obviously there are some very skilled drivers out there that can drive an "80% car" to a victory over "80% drivers" like me.  But when there's a bunch of us 80% drivers out there, the one's with the 100% cars are going to do better.  I still agree with the original post, but eventually things get more complicated.)

[tripplej93]

Alberto, if we ever are at a track together, come by with your computer and Solo and we can look at some data.   The most help will be comparing your data to another, faster guy or girl's data.   You can see quickly the areas you need to focus on first.

 

It is helpful to start developing a good set of records too, so you can compare your laps now to previous weekends,etc.  It takes working with Data to really understand it, IMHO, and sharing data can be extremely helpful if you find someone who will share.   Normally we share our data pretty openly and we are an AIM team.

 

And yes, predictive lap timing is a great way to learn and experiement with driving.   Since I don't drive much anymore, I am stuck spending time in front of the computer looking for advantages and information there.   Joey is great with predictive lap timing, and the difficult questions like "Which gear should I run here?" and "what line is best?" are quickly answered when using predictive lap timing.

[Alberto]

Alberto, if we ever are at a track together, come by with your computer and Solo and we can look at some data.   The most help will be comparing your data to another, faster guy or girl's data.   You can see quickly the areas you need to focus on first.

 

It is helpful to start developing a good set of records too, so you can compare your laps now to previous weekends,etc.  It takes working with Data to really understand it, IMHO, and sharing data can be extremely helpful if you find someone who will share.   Normally we share our data pretty openly and we are an AIM team.

 

And yes, predictive lap timing is a great way to learn and experiement with driving.   Since I don't drive much anymore, I am stuck spending time in front of the computer looking for advantages and information there.   Joey is great with predictive lap timing, and the difficult questions like "Which gear should I run here?" and "what line is best?" are quickly answered when using predictive lap timing.

 

Thank you

[JRHille]

Take as much knowledge from anyone you can at the track.  Study what other drivers do on track around you.  HAVE SELF CRITICISM!  Self criticism is the best tool to have when trying to go faster...10x better than a fancy car and engine...

[Randy Wolfgram]

This thread should be stickied.. lots of great nuggets in here.   Since I'm just starting out here, I spent my money in 2 areas.  Data acquisition and safety (good containment seat, belts and fire suppression) because I felt like data (more importantly, being able to compare it) was going to give me the best opportunity to see where I'm losing time and then put together plan for what to focus on the next time I'm at the track.  Safety because I'm older now and realize that shit can (and probably will) actually happen to me   

[Danny Steyn]

Possibly the best example of what to do to go fast happened to me during the past NASA Champs at Road Atlanta this past weekend. On test day our Spec Miata’s were running with the Spec E30 BMW and the faster BMW class Spec 3.

 

After the first session a guy comes over to our trailer and says…. “I hope you don’t mind, I was in the white and red BMW and I could see that you knew your way around the track so I let you by and followed you around to learn the track.”

 

He had never been to the track before but immediately noticed a car hounding his tail and figured that driver might know a bit more about the track than he did. Not only that, but he came to find me afterwards and I invited him into the trailer and we spent some time going over data, going over each corner and he thanked me and left.

 

On Sunday’s race day, the Spec E30 class was the session before the Spec Miata’s. After our race I rolled over the scales in tech and the same guy came up to me and excitedly pointed to his white an red BMW, also in tech being torn down, and said …. “I am here because of you – thanks for all your help”!

 

And despite how gratifying that sounded I reminded him that it was all him. “NO you are here because you pulled over and tucked in behind me, most drivers would have raced me every corner, never tucked in to learn and not a single other driver came over to find me ar ask to go over the track. Just you. It’s all due to you!”.

 

So my advice is to develop an insatiable curiosity about everything that pertains to racing, and you will do just fine.

 

I personally have never ever done a perfect lap, not once, there is still so much more to learn!

[davew]

Possibly the best example of what to do to go fast happened to me during the past NASA Champs at Road Atlanta this past weekend. On test day our Spec Miata’s were running with the Spec E30 BMW and the faster BMW class Spec 3.

 

After the first session a guy comes over to our trailer and says…. “I hope you don’t mind, I was in the white and red BMW and I could see that you knew your way around the track so I let you by and followed you around to learn the track.”

 

He had never been to the track before but immediately noticed a car hounding his tail and figured that driver might know a bit more about the track than he did. Not only that, but he came to find me afterwards and I invited him into the trailer and we spent some time going over data, going over each corner and he thanked me and left.

 

On Sunday’s race day, the Spec E30 class was the session before the Spec Miata’s. After our race I rolled over the scales in tech and the same guy came up to me and excitedly pointed to his white an red BMW, also in tech being torn down, and said …. “I am here because of you – thanks for all your help”!

 

And despite how gratifying that sounded I reminded him that it was all him. “NO you are here because you pulled over and tucked in behind me, most drivers would have raced me every corner, never tucked in to learn and not a single other driver came over to find me ar ask to go over the track. Just you. It’s all due to you!”.

 

So my advice is to develop an insatiable curiosity about everything that pertains to racing, and you will do just fine.

 

I personally have never ever done a perfect lap, not once, there is still so much more to learn!

 

Another great nugget of advice by Danny

 

Great thread with lots of usefull info

 

Dave

[Ron Alan]

There should be some new drivers getting rich here!! 

 

Dannys last jewel here would almost seem common sense but it is amazing how often new drivers think they can do it on there own. Be it ego or whatever, it is amazing how much longer a "go it alone" driver will take to come up to speed vs the scared/nervous but fully focused newbie who realizes his teachers are all around him! There will come a time when the teacher becomes the competition and at some point the student 

 

Advise to ad to what Danny said. Look at lap time sheets or race monitor after every session...and figure out who is 1 or 2 seconds faster than you. Find those cars on grid be it practice or qualifiying and start sniffing their tailpipe on track. Even better is to find them in the paddock before hand, introduce yourself, stroke their ego, and politely ask if you can follow them for as long as you can keep up!! You will make new friends, gain respect and usually start becoming faster!!

[LarryKing]

 

Put any of the front running guys in your car, give them a few hours to set it up and they will kick your butt

 

As a learning tool, I 100% believe a good, safe, solid 1.6 is best

 

Any front runners with an all-out build NB willing to trade cars with me for a race weekend to test this theory?

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

Any front runners with an all-out build NB willing to trade cars with me for a race weekend to test this theory?

I'm sure they would on a test day... If you have data ask a fast guy to drive of similar size to drive your car for a session to get feedback and data to work off of.

[tripplej93]

Any front runners with an all-out build NB willing to trade cars with me for a race weekend to test this theory?

 

I did not say trade cars.   I was trying to say they most likely have a set up that would beat your set up.

 

Why not ask a front running driver, on a test day, to take a session in your car (as long as you have some sort of data)?  Then you would have a fast baseline for comparison.   If the two of you are the same speed, then you know you need to start wrenching on your car, chassis first.   If you are not up to speed, then you need some work too.   Most likely he or she will also tell you what they like or don't like about the way the car handles so it is a double win for you.

 

Get the fundamentals right.   Make friends with everyone in the field.   Listen more than you talk.   Move to the front.

[LarryKing]

 

a fast guy to drive of similar size to drive your car for a session

 

willing to trade cars with me for a race weekend

 

If "pro-motors" are over-rated and if a "top driver" in my car can beat my time in my car, then a top driver in my car should be able to beat me while I'm driving their car.

 

No?

[tripplej93]

I'm sure they would on a test day... If you have data ask a fast guy to drive of similar size to drive your car for a session to get feedback and data to work off of.

Wow, can you see why my brother Joe and I are a two headed monster!   LOL, talk about thinking alike.

[tripplej93]

And this is where Joe will bring up:  "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish and you feed him forever."

[Derrick Ambrose]

I can vouch for Jim on this as he has seen my "career" of racing get going.  I may not run a spec miata (B-Spec Mazda 2, aka slow cars) but the advice really applies.  My first year running the car was on 1 set of BFG R1 tires.  Just 1 set for 10 race weekends and I learned how to drive the car.  The following year I added data and started running R1S tires and teamed up with "Team Jordan" at the Majors to improve the car setup and driving more through the season ending with a 6th place finish at the runoffs.  All of this was done with the same engine and car, just improving the driver and setup

 

This year I was able to win at a track where the competitors were supposed to be faster (at AutoClub) on a set of tires I had run at the runoffs.  It all came down to driving the car better from looking at the data and car setup and being able to improve.  We shall see how it goes at the runoffs this year with all I have learned.

 

I have also heard repeated to me if you can drive a slow car fast you can drive a fast car at the limit which is why I chose a slow car to learn in. 

 

-Derrick

[Ron Alan]

Jim and Joe...you got sucked into the Denny machine. The king of subtle sarcasm and Tongue and check remarks. My guess is he doesn't need any help but for sure would like to trade someone cars! 

[Kyle Keenan]

Jim's post pretty much checks the boxes with what I try to tell people. Drive what you have. Don't skip events because your tires are on the 8th heat cycle, and someone you've never seen before on the internet is telling you that you'll suck without sticker tires.

One thing that I feel really helped me (In addition to running a video camera, a lap timer, and plugging a faster driver in my car) was running 2 classes. SM and STL, for the extra seat time. At most events here, it's only an extra $150 or so, and I'll run the oldest, hardest tires I've got. I'll often pick one area I want to work on in my driving, such as altering a line getting onto a straight to try to carry more speed, or to try out different sway bar settings/tire pressures.