250 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

It has been stated that building to the whistler and not cc is in the gray area. Cc is a hard number that can be measured. That's not the gray area that's black and white. That is just playing the odds. It's like an oversized or no restrictor and hoping tech won't check it.

 

Ok, Accurate and fair statement.

So let's talk about how we have trained tech/proper equipment/work area at every event. Or ^^ that's just for the rule book.

A little more difficult??

Sorry back to reality.

J~

[Bench Racer]

So let's talk about how we have trained tech/proper equipment/work area at every event.

J~

Let's be a bit more upfront.

 

Ralph, Jim, Dan, Mike, at the track the competitor is responsible to remove the head. Then for any one of you with knowledge/capabilities, what is the total time element to cc and calulate the compression ratio? 

[Johnny D]

Ok, Tech guys, what would you do at the track...

Whistle 1st with no VC and if over CC???

 

Or CC the top xxx and a random few because it more accurate than Whistle?

 

Something different?

J~

[Johnny D]

Depends on the event.

If you catch his drift.

J~

 

A Runoffs winning Formula Ford driver once told me:

 

" I have a pretty good National motor, down a little for Regionals and terrible for Midwestern Council"

 

What will your conscience allow you to do? What will your ego force you to do?

 

Dave

[Dan Tiley]

Let's be a bit more upfront.

 

Ralph, Jim, Dan, Mike, at the track the competitor is responsible to remove the head. Then for any one of you with knowledge/capabilities, what is the total time element to cc and calulate the compression ratio? 

 

Assuming the head is already removed from the engine, everything is at ambient temperature, and you make ASSUMPTIONS based on existing data for:

1.   Diameter of piston above the rings
2.   Piston top chamfer dimensions
3.   Ring land height from piston top

 

You can CC one cylinder of an engine in about 20-30 minutes.  This includes:

1.   CC'ing the head (combustion chamber)
2.   Measuring head gasket diameter and crushed height
3.   Sealing the rings to the cylinder with grease
4.   CC'ing the block for piston dome volume
5.   Measuring bore 
6.   Measuring stroke
7.   Doing some math

If you don't make assumptions for the first 3, the piston  from the measured cylinder needs to be removed.  As a competitor, I would demand that those first 3 items are done correctly (piston removed), as those items increase the total combustion volume and lower the calculated CR number.  Now the total time to CC is well over an hour, not including cooling time (another 2-3 hours?).

 

I think Mueller was on to something with NASA when they prepared an outside firm to do the measurements.  I'll say it again, and I sincerely hope SCCA Tech can prove me wrong at the Runoffs, but it is just not practical to do a proper CC measurement at the track.  Note I didn't say "Not Possible"... I said "Not Practical".

[Jim Drago]

Ok, Tech guys, what would you do at the track...

Whistle 1st with no VC and if over CC???

 

Or CC the top xxx and a random few because it more accurate than Whistle?

 

Something different?

J~

 

In a happy perfect world..

 

 Whistle cars with out valve cover and that would be the tool to check compression 100% of the time...

 

pass or fail based solely on those results ,,

 

If a car fails.. The competitor can ask for the car to be Cc'ed at their expense ( no bond by club)

At Runoffs or big Events, Tech can decide to CC if they like, but always after a whistler procedure IMO as it is such a quick and easy test.

[Bench Racer]

Thanks Dan.

You not only answered my question, I'm sure you eliminated curisity of others.

[Dan Tiley]

In a happy perfect world..

 

 Whistle cars with out valve cover and that would be the tool to check compression 100% of the time...

 

pass or fail based solely on those results ,,

 

If a car fails.. The competitor can ask for the car to be Cc'ed at their expense ( no bond by club)

At Runoffs or big Events, Tech can decide to CC if they like, but always after a whistler procedure IMO as it is such a quick and easy test.

 

That's where I'm at too.

 

We'll need to allow for a small tolerance over the spec though... Probably +0.2 (flickering to 0.3 being not OK).  The certification in my Whistler says it's good to +/- 0.2.  I've found it to be even closer than that, but it gives the competitor gets the benefit of the doubt.  Even if you come up +0.2 it's a waste of time and $$ to cc.  

[john mueller]

 Whistle cars with out valve cover and that would be the tool to check compression 100% of the time...

 

pass or fail based solely on those results ,,

 

If a car fails.. The competitor can ask for the car to be Cc'ed at their expense ( no bond by club)

At Runoffs or big Events, Tech can decide to CC if they like, but always after a whistler procedure IMO as it is such a quick and easy test.

 

I'm pretty sure I can get NASA to roll with this... 

 

Jim & Dan, lets get together and document a SM specific Whistle test procedure and put it into play.  I know SCCA may have some hurdles to making it an official rule (not a dig, just reality) but NASA could make it so mid-next week.  Again not a dig but, as a lever to possibly move it along.

 

IF WE THE COMPETITORS (or mostly) agree I see no reason why at next weeks Runoffs and next months 2014 NASA Western Championships this shouldn't be used.

[Jim Drago]

I'm pretty sure I can get NASA to roll with this... 

 

Jim & Dan, lets get together and document a SM specific Whistle test procedure and put it into play.  I know SCCA may have some hurdles to making it an official rule (not a dig, just reality) but NASA could make it so mid-next week.  Again not a dig but, as a lever to possibly move it along.

 

IF WE THE COMPETITORS (or mostly) agree I see no reason why at next weeks Runoffs and next months 2014 NASA Western Championships this shouldn't be used.

 

 

SCCA and Runoffs will not have an issue IMO.  

 

SCCA can and will move swiftly here, but many on Smac and CRB will be at the Runoffs and very busy. We will have a SMAC soon and CRB meeting at the Runoffs. This will likely be official for 2015 IMO.  All seem on board though.  

[MPR22]

In a happy perfect world..

 

 Whistle cars with out valve cover and that would be the tool to check compression 100% of the time...

 

pass or fail based solely on those results ,,

 

If a car fails.. The competitor can ask for the car to be Cc'ed at their expense ( no bond by club)

At Runoffs or big Events, Tech can decide to CC if they like, but always after a whistler procedure IMO as it is such a quick and easy test.

Also there needs to be an appeal process where the competitor can have the car re whistled (car not to leave impound) and he/she should be able to watch the entire process with the instruction manual in their hands, so they can follow along and verify if the procedure was performed properly.  If done properly with Dan's suggested tolerances based on the manufacturers accuracy numbers a second fail is a pretty good indicator of possible infraction.  

[john mueller]

SCCA and Runoffs will not have an issue IMO.  

 

SCCA can and will move swiftly here, but many on Smac and CRB will be at the Runoffs and very busy. We will have a SMAC soon and CRB meeting at the Runoffs. This will likely be official for 2015 IMO.  All seem on board though.  

 

Lets have the EXACT same verbage.

 

I'll probably document something for the Western Champs, more than likely in the event supplemental regs.  But for 2015 SCCA & NASA will be 100% inline on this issue.

 

Only took 10 page to get a here!!!

[Sean - MiataCage]

All of this sounds like a great start.  I have a couple questions:

 

1.) If you make the Whistler the now defacto measurement tool, do we now need to open up the stroke on the motors to be free?  Can you cheat the stroke and still pass the Whistler?  I am told yes, but I don't know.

 

2.) Everyone keeps talking about how accurate the Whistler is, so I do not see the need for 10.2.  The rule is 10.0.  10.0 to 10.09 is legal, 10.1 is not legal.  10.2 is certainly not legal and I don't see the need to keep the creep however small moving.  The rule is 10.0 let's not complicate it any further.  There are many of us out there that have built to the 10.0 rule and I don't see the need to rebuild to now get to 10.2.

 

3.) I would also suggest that the Whistler is not the ultimate defining tool, so lets not change or write any rules that would approve it as such.  We have all heard the stories about people who don't know how to use the Whistler properly and we also now know that most all of the engine builders own Whistlers.  I think the CC still needs to be the defining way of establishing legality in either the protest process or Runoffs/Big Race scenario's.  I guess what I am trying to say is I don't want the rule to be written for the Whistler to be the ultimate defining tool in all cases since the engine builders already own these tools and will no doubt be able to find ways to build to the Whistler..... Again.

 

I think the proposed solution most are throwing out works for 90+ percent of the cases and I support it as long as there is still the ability via the rules process to CC the motor for a protest in those few circumstances that it is needed.

 

We also need to address the motors that are not going to be checked at the Runoffs.  I could be wrong, but I doubt the engine builders are going to tell us how many motors they built to the Whistler and I also doubt that they will do a recall of sorts to fix those motors.  Cliff Brown's idea of a fund to start protesting (to the new Whistler requirement) cars on the podium at regional races throughout the year next year is a good idea.  I am not only donating to his fund but will also be protesting cars on the West coast at all Major events if the Whistler doesn't come out through the normal tech process so we can get the offending motors up to compliance.

 

In my eyes these motors are still illegal and I am not willing to just overlook it since it is not the Runoffs.  We all spend a lot of time and money to race these cars and I think we need to get this reigned in on more than just the National level.

 

Sean

[Johnny D]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you're legal, CC'd etc. You will whistle a 10 with the VC off. And the 10 is the spec for whatever year 99. Each are different. 

 

It's when the VC is on is where the hanky panky starts.

J~

[Sean - MiataCage]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you're legal, CC'd etc. You will whistle a 10 with the VC off. And the 10 is the spec for whatever year 99. Each are different. 

 

It's when the VC is on is where the hanky panky starts.

J~

 

I think you are right, which is my point behind not needing to creep to 10.2.  

 

I however am also told that you can cheat the stroke and still read properly with the Whistler, but I'm not sure.

 

Motor guys need to chime in.....

[Jim Drago]

All of this sounds like a great start.  I have a couple questions:
 
1.) If you make the Whistler the now defacto measurement tool, do we now need to open up the stroke on the motors to be free?  Can you cheat the stroke and still pass the Whistler?  I am told yes, but I don't know.

Absolutely not... the Stroke is relatively easy to check. I am bringing a stroke checker we made for the miatas, I will hand to John Bauer if he wants to use.

Bore, Stroke and Compression are hard numbers, none will ever be changed, nor should they.

 

2.) Everyone keeps talking about how accurate the Whistler is, so I do not see the need for 10.2.  The rule is 10.0.  10.0 to 10.09 is legal, 10.1 is not legal.  10.2 is certainly not legal and I don't see the need to keep the creep however small moving.  The rule is 10.0 let's not complicate it any further.  There are many of us out there that have built to the 10.0 rule and I don't see the need to rebuild to now get to 10.2.

 
I agree, but we may have some resistance if that is what is in the manual as a tolerance. Again, NO RULE WILL EVER SAY THE COMPRESSION RATIO MUST BE "X" AS READ BY THE WHISTLER.
 

3.) I would also suggest that the Whistler is not the ultimate defining tool, so lets not change or write any rules that would approve it as such.  We have all heard the stories about people who don't know how to use the Whistler properly and we also now know that most all of the engine builders own Whistlers.  I think the CC still needs to be the defining way of establishing legality in either the protest process or Runoffs/Big Race scenario's.  I guess what I am trying to say is I don't want the rule to be written for the Whistler to be the ultimate defining tool in all cases since the engine builders already own these tools and will no doubt be able to find ways to build to the Whistler..... Again.

NO RULE WILL EVER SAY THE COMPRESSION RATIO MUST BE "X" AS READ BY THE WHISTLER.

[Johnny D]

Once again, correct me...

 

This isn't a rule/spec change.

This is a test procedure doc addition/change?

J~

[Sean - MiataCage]

Perfect!
 

Absolutely not... the Stroke is relatively easy to check. I am bringing a stroke checker we made for the miatas, I will hand to John Bauer if he wants to use.

Bore, Stroke and Compression are hard numbers, none will ever be changed, nor should they.

 
 
I agree, but we may have some resistance if that is what is in the manual as a tolerance. Again, NO RULE WILL EVER SAY THE COMPRESSION RATIO MUST BE "X" AS READ BY THE WHISTLER.
 
NO RULE WILL EVER SAY THE COMPRESSION RATIO MUST BE "X" AS READ BY THE WHISTLER.

[Bench Racer]

Bore, Stroke and Compression are hard numbers, none will ever be changed, nor should they.

Agree 

[Mark Drennan]

We also need to address the motors that are not going to be checked at the Runoffs.  I could be wrong, but I doubt the engine builders are going to tell us how many motors they built to the Whistler and I also doubt that they will do a recall of sorts to fix those motors.  Cliff Brown's idea of a fund to start protesting (to the new Whistler requirement) cars at regional races throughout the year next year is a good idea.  I am not only donating to his fund but will also be protesting cars on the West coast at all Major events if the Whistler doesn't come out through the normal tech process so we can get the offending motors up to compliance.

 

In my eyes these motors are still illegal and I am not willing to just overlook it since it is not the Runoffs.  We all spend a lot of time and money to race these cars and I think we need to get this reigned in on more than just the National level.

 

Sean

 

I agree the podium should always be whistled (and maybe even weighed here in SFR lol) and if it's not in the tech officials plan, then a protest is probably the only way to get it done.  If you're talking off the podium finishers, do you really have to protest someone first?  How about approaching people and talking to them about it?    I'm pretty sure many folks have no idea whether or not their builder gave them a CR compliant motor.  Those same people are likely to voluntarily submit to being whistled.  If they aren't willing and you're really suspicious, then go ahead and protest.