250 replies to this topic

[john mueller]

 

 

If a protest for compression was filed why were those cars not CC'd?  Isn't that the only way to 100% accurately measure the compression ratio? 

 

 

 

 

A motor guy will need to answerer this...   Don't pistons extend into the combustion chamber making a CC test irrelevant?    I'm not sure if this comes into play on our cars. 

[Jim Drago]

 

 

Isn't all this the same crap that just went down at the NASA East Championship?  The rumor mill from there said most all the top cars Whistled over as well.  When is someone going to get this right?  If 10 minutes is too long to take the valve cover off, then let the top 6 engine builders come up with the number that the Whistler should see with valve covers on so we can get to the bottom of this once and for all.

 

 

 

If I'm paying 5-8k for a pro built motor I expect it to be built to the rule, not the Whistler.

 

 

 

 

Two things..

I was at NASA and to my knowledge no car whistled over the limits. 

 

 

While we may agree or disagree here.. I would say people expect different things from a pro engine builder for 5-8K.   Whatever side of the fence you fall on and I will assure you they fall on both sides!  The calls are usually I want everything you can do but it has to pass tech( with very little care about anything else) or I don't want anything outside the rules at all.  I would say the split is 85/15.. Most want the first, not the second. Imo, the answer is and should be to get those two the exact same thing. It is VERY close to that right now.

 

Also, not that I am giving this the seal of approval.. I also think it is important to realize.. none of these cars that come back .3 or so on compression are going to fall back to also rans. This is probably 1-2 hp gain worst case. It is an advantage, but a good car before will remain a good car after. 

[john mueller]

 

Isn't all this the same crap that just went down at the NASA East Championship?  The rumor mill from there said most all the top cars Whistled over as well.  When is someone going to get this right?
 

 

 

Rumors are usually bullshit, this case is no exception. All cars that underwent the Whistle Test at the 2014 NASA Eastern Champs were within the rule.  All were tested in accordance with the instructions from Katech Inc, the manufacture of the Whistler.  AKA, with the Valve Cover ON.

[Danny Steyn]

Sean, I was at NASA - my car, Alex's and Pombo's all passed the whistler test in post race tech. The engines were then torn down and heads, intakes, exhausts, cams, lifters etc were all thoroughly teched!

 

Thread and photos here - http://mazdaracers.c...hread/?p=65219 

 

Engines were Rossini '99, Autotechnik '99 and Ti-Speed '02

[Sean - MiataCage]

Sean, I was at NASA - my car, Alex's and Pombo's all passed the whistler test in post race tech. The engines were then torn down and heads, intakes, exhausts, cams, lifters etc were all thoroughly teched!

 

Thread and photos here - http://mazdaracers.c...hread/?p=65219 

 

Engines were Rossini '99, Autotechnik '99 and Ti-Speed '02

 

Thanks Danny.  So the engines were then CC'd for compression verification since they were "thoroughly teched"?

 

I'm pretty sure I already know that answer...... So... John Mueller, will you be changing the NASA whistler procedures for the West championship to do valve covers off, or will you be CC'ing the motors in impound?  If your not prepared to CC the motors as part of the post race tech I would sure like to understand why not.  Procedure, tooling personnel, time etc.

 

As far as the rumors being bullshit, I am told that there was a very open discussion from many involved about the fact that some of the motors that were whistled were built to the pass the Whistler test and were knowingly over based on the the number an actual CC or valve cover off would produce.  Why NASA didn't or wouldn't CC them since they were already torn down is beyond me.... Again, I'm not a motor guy, but the motor guys I know say this is the only actual way to accurately measure the compression.

 

I'm not trying to be an ASS here, but clearly we have a problem that needs to be resolved.  Should be pretty simple..... In a major event like a NASA or SCCA Championship the motors need to be CC'd.  Throw the whistler in the trash.  And in the regional events I think the people smarter than me need to come up with a number for the whistler that is representative of a compliant compression ratio with the valve covers on in order to reduce the amount of time needed to perform what appears to be a necessary compliance check.

 

Again.... Not being a motor guy, how can someone fix a motor that was built to the whistler?  Do they have to start over, can they just put a different head gasket on it?  This is frustrating because you can almost guarantee an extremely limited amount of tech (if any) outside of the Runoffs and Nasa Championships going into next year.  So now we have to potentially compete with already built motors with more compression at regional events.  The horse appears to be out of the barn..... How do we successfully get it back in for both big events and normal regional type events?  

 

While I am ranting.... I would also like to see the protest rules changes so that in the event of a protest, the protestor gets 1 representative to watch the protested item/issue be checked.  Going into a back room and coming out saying everything is ok or not doesn't seem fair to me.  If I'm paying my money to protest something then I should be able to be present when the protested part is checked.

 

Thanks for your input..... Sean

[davew]

It has been a long time since NOLA, but IIRC all 3 top cars where 0.3 to 0.5 lower than allowed. East St, Stewart and Ti-Speed. As measured with the valve cover on.

 

Dave

[LarryKing]

 

How do we successfully get it back in for both big events and normal regional type events? 

You have a Runoffs/NASA Champs motor and you have an "everyday" motor for non tech events. (Don't think this isn't already being done.)

[Sean - MiataCage]

You have a Runoffs/NASA Champs motor and you have an "everyday" motor for non tech events. (Don't think this isn't already being done.)

Wow.... Really, Thanks.

[davew]

A Runoffs winning Formula Ford driver once told me:

 

" I have a pretty good National motor, down a little for Regionals and terrible for Midwestern Council"

 

What will your conscience allow you to do? What will your ego force you to do?

 

Dave

[Bench Racer]

Remember that the whistler is purely an indication, It is NOT the actual compression ratio measurement. But a car that whistles at or above the limit then should be CC'd to confirm the whistler

The whistler raises a RED flag.

[LarryKing]

 

Wow.... Really, Thanks.

 

I'd support sealed motors (trans, diffs, etc...) a la MX5 cup and SRF - but I've been informed it would NEVER work in SM.

[Strongbad]

Monsieur S.A. Crebleu,
Toujours la même histoire ..... la puissance de la Miata.
C'est la vie.
Cordialement,

Jacques LeCouteau

[Johnny D]

Monsieur S.A. Crebleu,
Toujours la même histoire ..... la puissance de la Miata.
C'est la vie.
Cordialement,

Jacques LeCouteau

 

Google translator.

 

Mr. S.A. hang it,
Always the same story ..... the power of the Miata.
That's life.
kind regards,

[Danny Steyn]

Sean

 

I actually agree with pretty much everything that you are saying in both of your posts. You are cutting to the heart of the matter. However I was merely pointing out that the cars passed tech.

 

• Are there motors that are slightly over compression (0.1-0.2)? ABSOLUTELY.
• Are there some that are way over (0.3+)? Yes there are and probably way more than you would expect.
• Are they all in one engine builder's camp? I doubt it.
• Do we as a class need to do something about this? ABSOLUTELY.
• Should we continue to use the whistler? YES - it raises the RED flag.
• Can we as a class come up with reliable numbers for the whistler for each engine type, with the valve covers on, to make measuring faster? No Doubt
• Should engines that are flagged be CC'd? YES - as long as the tech guy knows what he has doing and is using a well accepted table for the stroke dimensions
• Can the horse be brought back into the stable? ABSOLUTELY
• Should we also be checking stroke? YES - never seen it done yet, only seen rods checked. Never seen a crank checked.
• Have we seen very fast cars suddenly slow down prior to the Runoffs and other deep tech events? SURE
• Feel free to add to this

[Jim Drago]

 

Sean

 

I actually agree with pretty much everything that you are saying in both of your posts. You are cutting to the heart of the matter. However I was merely pointing out that the cars passed tech.

 

• Are there motors that are slightly over compression (0.1-0.2)? ABSOLUTELY.
• Are there some that are way over (0.3+)? Yes there are and probably way more than you would expect.
• Are they all in one engine builder's camp? I doubt it.
• Do we as a class need to do something about this? ABSOLUTELY.
• Should we continue to use the whistler? YES - it raises the RED flag.
• Can we as a class come up with reliable numbers for the whistler for each engine type, with the valve covers on, to make measuring faster? No Doubt
• Should engines that are flagged be CC'd? YES - as long as the tech guy knows what he has doing and is using a well accepted table for the stroke dimensions
• Can the horse be brought back into the stable? ABSOLUTELY
• Should we also be checking stroke? YES - never seen it done yet, only seen rods checked. Never seen a crank checked.
• Have we seen very fast cars suddenly slow down prior to the Runoffs and other deep tech events? SURE
• Feel free to add to this

 

 

I can't see anyone with any experience or knowledge of this subject disagreeing at all with everything in your post. i agree 100%. Good post.

 

 

With regards to stroke.. It has been checked every year since 09 at the Runoffs( just commenting on years I was personally in the shed or have first hand knowledge).  I was not confident with how they were checking, but it was checked.  I recently made a stroke checker that you can bolt to the head. It is probably accurate to .005 or so.  It will catch obviously manipulations, but short of measuring on real stroke checker, it will not be 100% accurate.   

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

 

Sean

 

I actually agree with pretty much everything that you are saying in both of your posts. You are cutting to the heart of the matter. However I was merely pointing out that the cars passed tech.

 

• Are there motors that are slightly over compression (0.1-0.2)? ABSOLUTELY.
• Are there some that are way over (0.3+)? Yes there are and probably way more than you would expect.
• Are they all in one engine builder's camp? I doubt it.
• Do we as a class need to do something about this? ABSOLUTELY.
• Should we continue to use the whistler? YES - it raises the RED flag.
• Can we as a class come up with reliable numbers for the whistler for each engine type, with the valve covers on, to make measuring faster? No Doubt
• Should engines that are flagged be CC'd? YES - as long as the tech guy knows what he has doing and is using a well accepted table for the stroke dimensions
• Can the horse be brought back into the stable? ABSOLUTELY
• Should we also be checking stroke? YES - never seen it done yet, only seen rods checked. Never seen a crank checked.
• Have we seen very fast cars suddenly slow down prior to the Runoffs and other deep tech events? SURE
• Feel free to add to this

 

I had stroke checked on my car at the Eagles Canyon majors race. They also check compression... but it was with the valve cover in place.

[Danny Steyn]

There are a few people that should be applauded here on this thread

 

• First off Cliff Brown for filing the protest. It takes guts to be the unpopular guy and file a protest, but I know how pissed off he and several others have been for the past year or two in the SE Division where drivers have started to affect the outcomes of races that in his, and many others, should not be influencing the race. I too have suffered under this and my anger at one event in particular almost caused me to depart Spec Miata 
• Kyle Webb, for expressing exactly his sentiments, and I too wish I had the balls and thick caveman skin to do what he does so perfectly - speak his mind without a filter
• Sean from Miata Cage for doing the same - calling a spade a spade.

Too often I find myself backing out of speaking my mind for fear of pissing off a lot of people. I have a lot to learn from Cliff, Kyle and Sean. Thanks guys

[davew]

I agree with everything Danny just typed.

 

I just wish we would all understand that horsepower is not the end all, to going fast in a Spec Miata. It still takes a great driver to finish up front at any SM race.

 

A few weeks ago at Road America Regional (Americas dyno!!!) Voytek won driving my rental car. Not to put down my rental car, but it ain't no $40k killer SM. It was probably the 5th best car at the track, but it had the best driver.

 

Dave

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Wheeler when beaten by driving few ever get upset... When beaten by HP especially repeatedly changes your tune! End of discussion. Equal talent but unequal cars always favors the car! When Voytek beats the top 5 cars with top 5 drivers with a sixth place car and first place driving then we can talk.

[Sean - MiataCage]

Thanks Danny.... Didn't mean to appear as though I was attacking you, sorry for that.  I just want to see us as a group fix it so we can get back to the best racing in the country.  

 

 

Sean

 

I actually agree with pretty much everything that you are saying in both of your posts. You are cutting to the heart of the matter. However I was merely pointing out that the cars passed tech.

 

• Are there motors that are slightly over compression (0.1-0.2)? ABSOLUTELY.
• Are there some that are way over (0.3+)? Yes there are and probably way more than you would expect.
• Are they all in one engine builder's camp? I doubt it.
• Do we as a class need to do something about this? ABSOLUTELY.
• Should we continue to use the whistler? YES - it raises the RED flag.
• Can we as a class come up with reliable numbers for the whistler for each engine type, with the valve covers on, to make measuring faster? No Doubt
• Should engines that are flagged be CC'd? YES - as long as the tech guy knows what he has doing and is using a well accepted table for the stroke dimensions
• Can the horse be brought back into the stable? ABSOLUTELY
• Should we also be checking stroke? YES - never seen it done yet, only seen rods checked. Never seen a crank checked.
• Have we seen very fast cars suddenly slow down prior to the Runoffs and other deep tech events? SURE
• Feel free to add to this