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#81
Jim Drago

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This thread has evolved into the Whistler "Valve Cover-On" Exploit

 

Somebody figured out two things

  1. The Whistler reads way lower than the REAL Compression with the valve cover on
  2. Tech almost NEVER does a cc to confirm the whistler (just as Alex stated above)

and so they started building engines to meet the Whistler test with the valve cover on and now that this exploit has been exposed, they will now need to deal with all the engines out there that will no doubt be protested at the regional and national events that are coming up. Fortunately this is a relative easy fix by using thicker head gaskets to bring the CR back into spec.

 

But I want to address one thing. As far as I know, and Jim Drago who posted above to this effect, the Whistler provides a VERY accurate measurement when done correctly and with the valve cover off. A 2009 engine that has been cc'd will read 9.5 to 9.6 every time on the Whistler with the cover off and around 9.2 to 9.3 whit the cover on. A 2001 + VVT car that has been cc'd will Whistle 10.0 to 10.1 with the valve cover off and around 9.6 and above with the valve cover on. However when a VVT car has knowingly been built to meet the Whistler specs with the valve cover on, it will whistle at around 10.5 PLUS, and this means that there are some very strong VVT cars out there that have been causing havoc in this class. We all know of a few ......

 

So what I am saying is that we need to accurately write the spec and procedure for the Whistler, point out the various ways the Whistler can be gamed, and measure with the Valve cover OFF(or determine acceptable numbers for the valve cover on, but this leads to all sorts of other attempts to game the system) and lets continue to use the Whistler to raise the flag

 

 

Danny

This is as simple as a letter to crb@scca.com stating you would like a miata specific procedure for using the whistler. I think that can be hashed out in a few minutes. Or simply change the existing to state the valve cover must be removed in all miatas. 

 

As far as parity goes.. I will submit a dyno sheet from my 00 and my 03, IMO both are as good examples of a very top flight car.  That will be a good start, parity is always an issue an issue in SM, right now I think it takes a back set to this issue.  SMAC talks wont start until after the Runoffs.    


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#82
Johnny D

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Thanks Jim, before you go...

If a bulletin goes out, how is it supposed to be taken?

 

And will be see a Fasttrack blast real soon on how to :whistling:

 

CC just falls into protest territory?

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#83
john mueller

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How did 'we as a class' deal with the cheated-up ECU's in respect to Fuel Pressure and Timing?  We found a way around it, that's how.

Indeed, the cheaters got to keep their cheated-up ECUs while everyone got to purchase adjustable fuel pressure regulators and got the joy of spending more time and money going to the dyno.  The 99+'s got adjustable timing wheels and more dyno time, oh yaaaayyyyyy.   (Effing cheats messing with the good thing we have)

 

How best to solve this knowing a massive percentage of heads probably are out of spec?  Most regional events wont have the resources or expertise to properly CC a head, so instituting a procedure/test/rule that can't be consistently enforced would be worthless.

 

Someone tell me how this compression issue is different from the ECU problem of our past?


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#84
Johnny D

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I don't know all the HP #'s but if you failed, could you be treated as a overbore and made to run the extra weight?

J~


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#85
Sean - MiataCage

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Thanks for the additional information Jim.  I think a lot of the dialogue today has been constructive and we can hopefully reach a resolution shortly.

 

I'm still a little confused and have some questions for whomever can answer them:

 

I'm still at a loss as to if a protest for compression was filed that any response from tech other than a CC of block and head was deemed an appropriate way to address the protest.  Why would someone need to ask for the CC tools, why would that not have been the go to answer for a protest and RFA?

 

1.) Do we have to put into our protest specifically that it needs to be CC'd versus whistled?  

2.) Who made the decision to not CC right away?  Meaning, establish the appropriate tear down bond, seal the cars and get prepared for post race tear downs, NOT whistler.

3.) Who thought the Whistler would satisfy the protest?  Was this an error in judgement or does the whistler satisfy the protest and RFA?

4.) Is the recently updated whistler process deemed law so to speak.  In other words does it have to be followed to a T or is it up to the operators discretion?

 

Drago, Tiley, Rossini, Labounty etc.... Can you guys agree on a valve cover on number for the whistler for 1.6, 1.8 and 1.8VVT that could be more accurate than the situation we are in today?  A go no-go number or sorts?

 

Thanks.... Sean


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#86
Sean - MiataCage

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How did 'we as a class' deal with the cheated-up ECU's in respect to Fuel Pressure and Timing?  We found a way around it, that's how.

Indeed, the cheaters got to keep their cheated-up ECUs while everyone got to purchase adjustable fuel pressure regulators and got the joy of spending more time and money going to the dyno.  The 99+'s got adjustable timing wheels and more dyno time, oh yaaaayyyyyy.   (Effing cheats messing with the good thing we have)

 

How best to solve this knowing a massive percentage of heads probably are out of spec?  Most regional events wont have the resources or expertise to properly CC a head, so instituting a procedure/test/rule that can't be consistently enforced would be worthless.

 

Someone tell me how this compression issue is different from the ECU problem of our past?

 

Will you be CC'ing cars for the NASA West Championship?

Will you be using the Whistler for the NASA West Championship?

Will the Valve covers be on or off?

Do you have someone with the tools and experience to CC the motors in their entirety and properly?

 

Taking the motor completely apart does not constitute a thorough tech process if you don't know what to look for or worse yet, know what to look for but don't have the tools or ability to properly measure it.

 

As far as heads that are out of spec...... There was an active choice by the motor builder or the motor buyer to ask for a motor built only to the Whistler and not the compression ratio.  Quite honestly I don't care about who spent what, the rule book is the rule book and the compression numbers have not changed.  I have ZERO sympathy for someone who knowingly did this.  We shouldn't be saying its too far gone, so lets just allow it, that's not the right answer.

 

It seems to me if the motor builders can agree on a valve cover ON number then we are in a better position.  It still would not take the place of a protest or RFA and the motor would need to be CC'd in that scenario.  At these bigger races you need to validate the podium.  At the regional (ish) races I don't think it should be out of the question to have the top 3 plus 2 random to pull the valve cover to have it whistled (if we can't agree on a valve cover on number).  Do this for a while and the issue will go away quickly.  A stiff penalty which I must say NASA is pretty good at will also make this issue go away pretty quickly.

 

Sean


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#87
Sean - MiataCage

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Danny

This is as simple as a letter to crb@scca.com stating you would like a miata specific procedure for using the whistler. 

 

They no longer allow e-mails sent to that address.  You need to go to crbscca.com and fill out the online form.  Letter sent.  Thanks.... Sean


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#88
FTodaro

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Interesting discussion today, Just a few points to sum up.

 

We need to come up with a whistler tech spec for Miata's by year of car with valve cover on. Jim and Dan and others know what the numbers need to be to safely pass. Ad .01 to it and print it in the rule. If the whistler is accurate if the right values are used. this is the only way you can get this fixed on a mass scale. 

 

Most regions may not have what they need to CC a motor, and they are not going to do it at most major and regional events without a protest and bond.

 

One more point from the region standpoint, You guys are asking a lot of guys who volunteer THEIR  weekend to work all day for three days and then stay through the night to tech your stuff. If we are going to expect this kind of service we need to consider implementing a compliance fee, so that equipment and training can be purchased and training to take place.

 

just saying, i would not want that job.


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#89
Ken SM94

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CCing the engine is useless unless the stroke is properly measured.  If people were assuming the Whistler was the only test there are other ways to take advantage.

 

.008" - .012" is typically cut from the top of the block. Instead of surfacing the block you offset grind the rod journals on the crank, raise the piston in the bore to where it would be if surfaced, and add .016" - .024" to the stroke.  The engine would Whistle fine and even CC fine with the piston at tdc.

 

.024" of stroke could raise the CR enough to be meaningful. - especially when added to the effects of taking advantage of the low reading Whistler.

 

Properly measuring the stroke is just as important as CCing and pretty tough to measure in the field once the crank, rod and piston is removed from the block.  A procedure for this check needs to be written as well.


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#90
Cliff Brown USMC

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Hello Gents,

I very rarely post here but I think you all need the facts of what transpired this weekend. For over a year, the 2001 + cars have been making huge gains through the field and winding up on every podium in the S.E. I thought is a great thing for the SM series until I was at my home track at Road Atlanta getting passed by a 2001 car on the back straight like it had a turbo in it. Many SM racers started noticing a pattern and they too were getting skunked on straights by people who have never ran up front in their entire careers. This last year has helped make my final decisions after racing these type cars in other tracks. Where there is smoke you will find the fire. I did some investigating, talked to engine builders, asked valid questions, checked track times, track records, input from others and have come to one conclusion. Before I say what it is, I wanted to be clear and totally unbiased in my decision before I made it as they have  consequences. One thing everyone wants in this class is fairness, honesty, integrity and for everyone to be on the same playing field with no direct, malice or the absolute intention to cheat. If anyone ever suspected my car to be non compliant, I will be the first to offer them to go through my entire engine and see for themselves that I am indeed following the rules. I don't EVER  want anyone thinking that I have cheated in anyway. Every engine builder I have ever used knows that. I Ask only for taking it to the very edge, but never crossing it. I also would not be offended as it is NOT personal. Knock yourself out. That said, there are too many coincidences this year that have returned from last year that could not be left unchallenged. This past Sunday at 12:05 pm, I protested the top qualifying cars that were 2001 VVT cars. I filed the papers, the SCCA staff took the funds and began making arrangements. I specifically asked that the cars be checked for compression and that the cars be checked with the valve covers off. This is the most accurate way to measure compression without CC' them. To be clear, this protest was not directed at the drivers but the engine builders. Initially, all 3 failed but Drago's engine was within the margin of error of .1 or 10.1 was the actual per the Tech Staff. Tilley's were 10.3 and 10.4. I do not know which or who had what. Once these findings were made, the Officials stated that they were going to disqualify the times of Machaven and Topping and allow Burus to keep his times. Then Colum, Balonos and sabastian were protested. So, the top 6 qualifiers were tested. I do not have concrete facts to state what happened there so I will not comment.I only know of my protest and what the results were from it. Later, out of nowhere a reversal of the decision was made. I do not have concrete facts to assume why. They said I could protest their decision and it would go to KS. I have 10 days to protest.  So, I went to the Stewards and told them I wanted all of the engines broken down and CC'd. This would clearly show what the actual compression would be. The Chief Steward stated that is was too late to do a mechanical protest. I am not aware who made that decision to allow clearly non compliant cars to race. Needless to say, the SM community was dealt a severe blow in trusting our leaders in the SCCA to do the right thing. Before I digress, I want to say that the local Florida SCCA staff , Chief Stewards, Stewards and other officials involved busted their butts getting the paperwork ready, forgoing lunch and dinner, putting up with grade A  Butt holes ( Myself included) and going non stop from 12 to 7 PM. However I have zero faith that SCCA Corporate will do the right thing, follow up or anything else for that matter. So, what do we do as SM racers who want compliance and to right the wrongs we have been dealt? We have to take matters into our own hands and break out the check book. What we have is clear outright NON Compliance of engine building. (In the Marines we call that cheating!) We now have over 20 SM racers with engines who now know that they have cars that are clearly cheated ,are doing nothing about it and refuse to correct it or we have an engine builder (S) that is telling the racers that their engine is within spec KNOWING that person is parsing words and clearly have 2-6 more horse power than other car builders who have integrity and abide by the rules. It is with great reluctance to have to say that This is the most dispicable, spit in you face, screw all the other drivers who comply with the regulations and rules I have ever seen. I understand accidents, one time mistakes, caught one and corrected but his is blatant and will not be tolerated. Are there any SM racers who will stand with me and put this to bed or are you all going to continue talk Smack, hide and do nothing about YOUR sport and YOUR series? Don't count on the SCCA! They just want you to send more money and not ruffle any feathers when we need them the most. Since the SCCA will not do their job and show any leadership, I am accepting donations for the ARRC, RunOFFS and every major event this year and next until we weed out EVERY engine that is not within the rules. I will not release your names but I will be at every race to protest.  Last, to be fair,  I am going to tear down ALL of them including my own engine. Remember, don't be offended, you should be relieved we are cleaning up this sport and series.If you have this engine, you have been duly warned.


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#91
Dan Tiley

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The new procedure really needs to be done VC removed to be accurate.  Yes it adds 2 minutes for a 99 and 5 for a VVT, but it's worth it, and is a heckuvalot easier and practical than a teardown and CC for a check at any race event.  Variances in valve cover castings, as well as forward rearward shifts in VC mounting, all can have small impacts on the reading with the cover on.  Remove the VC eliminates the variability and makes the Whistler a pretty accurate tool.  Perhaps a +0.1 tolerance should be added to the rules, to be sure, as the current rule has ZERO tolerance, as CR is specifically listed as an "Absolute Maximum".  

 

One (probably very unpopular) comment I will make about CC'ing an engine.  IT'S HARD TO DO CORRECTLY!!!!  We all throw around the "just cc him" comment as if its like checking tire pressures.  It's not.  In tech, engines are hot.  I have found that CC'ing even a warm head out of the parts washer causes enough fluid expansion during the measurement to skew the readings a few tenths of a CC.  Imagine what happens when you try to measure the piston dome volume even within 2 hours of a race.  Did you know that to properly CC an engine, a piston needs to be removed so the top diameter above the rings can be measured?  Guys, our tech shed volunteers do a great job, but aren't afforded the luxuries at a race weekend that we are at our shops (ie, cool engines, good lighting, clean environment, etc).  Correctly CC'ing an engine is simply not practical for most races.... although I still would like to see a good effort for the Runoffs and NASA Champs, at least!   

 

Creighton probably has more experience with this than any of us, particularly with the Hooters Cup officiating.  Am I way off base here?  



#92
Johnny D

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You can't throw em on a dyno and catch em??

Just ask in.

 

Sure, no dyno, carry on...

J~


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#93
Ken SM94

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Hey Cliff, tell me where to send the money. I'm in.

 

I have other ideas too.


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#94
Todd Green

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It seems to me if the motor builders can agree on a valve cover ON number then we are in a better position. 

Wait are we talking painted or unpainted valve covers?  Now paintgate all makes sense.  They were actually using sound deadening paint which of course will affect your whistler readings even more.  We've come full circle.

 

P.S. ;)

P.P.S. Frank there != their.  You're making my ATD go crazy.

P.P.P.S. Johnny RFA == Request For Action


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#95
Sean - MiataCage

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The new procedure really needs to be done VC removed to be accurate.  Yes it adds 2 minutes for a 99 and 5 for a VVT, but it's worth it, and is a heckuvalot easier and practical than a teardown and CC for a check at any race event.  Variances in valve cover castings, as well as forward rearward shifts in VC mounting, all can have small impacts on the reading with the cover on.  Remove the VC eliminates the variability and makes the Whistler a pretty accurate tool.  Perhaps a +0.1 tolerance should be added to the rules, to be sure, as the current rule has ZERO tolerance, as CR is specifically listed as an "Absolute Maximum".  

 

One (probably very unpopular) comment I will make about CC'ing an engine.  IT'S HARD TO DO CORRECTLY!!!!  We all throw around the "just cc him" comment as if its like checking tire pressures.  It's not.  In tech, engines are hot.  I have found that CC'ing even a warm head out of the parts washer causes enough fluid expansion during the measurement to skew the readings a few tenths of a CC.  Imagine what happens when you try to measure the piston dome volume even within 2 hours of a race.  Did you know that to properly CC an engine, a piston needs to be removed so the top diameter above the rings can be measured?  Guys, our tech shed volunteers do a great job, but aren't afforded the luxuries at a race weekend that we are at our shops (ie, cool engines, good lighting, clean environment, etc).  Correctly CC'ing an engine is simply not practical for most races.... although I still would like to see a good effort for the Runoffs and NASA Champs, at least!   

 

Creighton probably has more experience with this than any of us, particularly with the Hooters Cup officiating.  Am I way off base here?  

 

Thanks Dan.  This is all good information and as a non motor guy I can see now how it can be difficult or even impossible for some of our regions and events.

 

So..... Given what you have just said above, who will be doing the CC'ing at the Runoffs.  I know Drago has confidence in Bauer, but I do not.

 

Do you think there will be the available tools, time and personnel to accurately do this for the NASA West and SCCA Runoffs?

 

Thanks for the additional details on the process...... Sean


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#96
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I am in full support of the cliff brown plan!

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#97
Will Schrader

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Cliff Brown! I look forward to meeting you and handing you a check at the Runoffs. How much do you need to get it done?

Will Schrader



#98
Danny Steyn

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And there I was, at Daytona, with my VVT car, practically begging Jim Creighton to let me run......

 

Boy, did I just barely escape the cross hairs of Cliffie Browns sniper rifle ..... maybe Creighton knew what was coming and wanted to save me!!!!!


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#99
tburas56

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I started typing this at 6 PM and just got back to my PC without reading the 40 quotes that went up before I hit send. I am in with Cliff.

 

Sorry Dan, but I was the car Jim C was talking about. I was told by the SOMs I would be starting in my qualifying spot and the other 2 competitors would be starting from the back. I have complete respect for both the 24 and the 92 drivers. This is not against them, they don’t build motors, as a matter of fact, one of those drivers is quoted as saying, “my motor is going to Topeka in a box and I will pay for the tear down”. Talk about complete respect. The last thing they both wanted was to be found non-compliant.

Thank you Cliff for walking the plank, takes guts…..

Thank you BSI for taking care of my car. Thank you East Street for the support…

56 car tested

The test landed on 10.1. I never saw anything else. I was told by BSI, it flashed 10.2 but they could not repeat the 10.2. The other cylinder landed on 10.1. There were 25 people who said the same.

24 Car

The test landed on 10.4

92 Car

The test landed on 10.5

From what I was told, the first test with the three cars was really accurate, it was not until the other cars were brought in things got fun…

Jim and Dan...Figure this out...

I am not a motor builder and I hope this gets fixed for the class.


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#100
Sean - MiataCage

Sean - MiataCage

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 Are there any SM racers who will stand with me and put this to bed or are you all going to continue talk Smack, hide and do nothing about YOUR sport and YOUR series? Don't count on the SCCA! They just want you to send more money and not ruffle any feathers when we need them the most. Since the SCCA will not do their job and show any leadership, I am accepting donations for the ARRC, RunOFFS and every major event this year and next until we weed out EVERY engine that is not within the rules. I will not release your names but I will be at every race to protest.  Last, to be fair,  I am going to tear down ALL of them including my own engine. Remember, don't be offended, you should be relieved we are cleaning up this sport and series.If you have this engine, you have been duly warned.

 

MiataCage will donate.  PM me and let me know what type of money you think you need to accomplish your goals.  Maybe we can get a few key guys around the country to be the protestors at some of the larger events to help expedite this process.

 

Thanks for serving this country and thanks for having the balls to stand up for what is right.  If and when I meet you (and you drink) the Beer and Whiskey is on me! :)

 

Sean


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