250 replies to this topic

[Mike Collins]

There is a lot of talk about cc'ing engines. I don't see anyway that is reasonable to do during the race weekend. I am pretty experienced at wrenching on these cars, and I don't think I could get reliable cc numbers at the track. The environment is just not conducive to that detailed a procedure. If the engine needs to be cc'd its likely going to have to get boxed up and sent off.

 

It seems as if everyone is in agreement that if the cylinders are whistled with the valve cover off, we are going to get reliable numbers that are very close to the cc numbers. It seems that a simple SM specific procedure change can stop the issues we are seeing with building to the test and not the spec. 

 

 

We can get closer but its still another test that can be beat...its being beat now.  With the head on the car its very hard to get accurate bore and stroke.  The whistler can be beat with both bore and stroke (and a few other ways)....

 

Some found ways to beat the whistler with the valve cover on....others have found different ways and pass with the valve cover off...  The whistler while an incredibly accurate tool when all the variables are know its far to easy to beat with the variables masked..

[john mueller]

Will you be CC'ing cars for the NASA West Championship?

Will you be using the Whistler for the NASA West Championship?

Will the Valve covers be on or off?

Do you have someone with the tools and experience to CC the motors in their entirety and properly?

 

Taking the motor completely apart does not constitute a thorough tech process if you don't know what to look for or worse yet, know what to look for but don't have the tools or ability to properly measure it.

 

Sean

 

Sean,

I'm not sure why you're being so tough about what NASA is going to do at the West Champs.  It may be a valid question but I'm not going divulge what the tech plans are publicly.  Why don't you register for it and attend and find out first hand.

 

I became aware of all this compression bullshit about 48hrs prior to the Eastern Champs:

• John Adamczky and I got with the head of the NASA Tech Crew and formed a plan to address outliers and protests should they occur.
• Given the short notice, NASA identified a resource to perform the CC should the conditions or situations require it to be done.  It was an independent offsite vendor which would have taken a few days to complete and entire engines would have been impounded and left behind.  Not an ideal situation, but it was in place if NASA Tech determine it was necessary.
• When NASA Tech had the top three cars pull cylinder heads we were checking valve cutback and such.
• Compression numbers were comparable across the cars NASA Whistled (per Katech's operation instructions).  Now, yes it is possible that all the cars Whistled at the Eastern Champs could have had 'high compression'...  However based on other data points NASA gathered it didn't seem probable.

 

I'm rather comfortable with how tech went for the 2014 NASA Eastern Champs.  Yes, it could've gone better, stuff like that can always go better.  I wish we can fully prepare for EVERYTHING but this is not NASCAR, resources are limited.  Now that's not an excuse not to get it right but when something as class changing as this pops-up days prior to a big race, putting the plan together that we had and followed was the best we could do.

[MPR22]

If the point of this thread is to point out a bunch of people are cheating up regional motors and getting away with it? Or is the point that people are cheating up Majors motors and getting away with it? Or is it because people are cheating up national championship motors and getting away with it?

The regional cheating has been going on since the beginning and will never go away.

Shame on people cheating up Majors motor. Doubt there will ever be enough tech to catch the cheaters at those events and who the hell wants to go through that invasive testing for a non championship event.

[Ron Alan]

"Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" has been batted around here. All need to look in the mirror on occasion!

 

Human nature is such very few want to finish 2nd. Finding that edge, be it tech shed legal, gray area, steroids, what have you is usually a matter of trying to keep up. Very difficult for for most to draw a line in the sand and not step over when there is a huge party going on on the other side. There is that one person who gets pulled over on the way home and finds themselves in jail while the rest of us made it home safely. And which side do you call out for the moral debate? The buyer? The seller? the middleman? The driver? The Builder? All the above? Everyone is quick to call out their arch rival or make moral statements about someone they dont know, but who here is going to call out their friends, or their clients?????  We all are guilty of picking and choosing what we want to throw our hands up about...

 

This particular debate has been brewing for awhile and now everyone is on notice. It is good for the class. What will be next 

[Tom Phillips]

The rule book has a rule.  The enforcers of the rule book have a tool to enforce the rule.  The competitors build to the tool that enforces the rule.  This is the way it has been and always will be.

That is precisely why this is so dangerous. I still believe that the majority of racers at this level don't want to cheat. But when something can be construed as a grey area, suddenly nice guys, who want to race fairly, are sucked in. Gaming an incorrectly applied test procedure for a large gain (with the perception that you can't compete otherwise) is so much more tempting than hiding some whole other trick, whether it is a longer stroke or a re-flashed ECU. You still get to feel like you are playing within the same rules. That's why I think this is a bigger issue than other problems that are much harder to tech. SM needs a major effort to ensure that all top cars are in compliance with the new valve-cover-off procedures not because that tool can't be tricked or because it will catch all the cheaters, but because it was an issue that seemed innocent enough (if you don't think about it too hard) to take in honest racers and engine builders in large numbers, yet is worth several (?) horsepower and presents a huge problem for the class.
 
Stupid question: Is there any possibility that someone could bring an unofficial whistler to the runoffs with a couple of guys who know how to use it, just to self-police SM? It seems like most engines will be fixed by then but that depends on a threat of actually being caught. A voluntary test to prove innocence (in this one issue) could save a lot of protests, and save the tech guys a lot of work. This might save money over mass protests? I don't know, enlighten me.

 

Edited for format

Edited by Tom Phillips, 09-30-2014 11:46 AM.

[Jim Drago]

 
Stupid question: Is there any possibility that someone could bring an unofficial whistler to the runoffs with a couple of guys who know how to use it, just to self-police SM? It seems like most engines will be fixed by then but that depends on a threat of actually being caught. A voluntary test to prove innocence (in this one issue) could save a lot of protests, and save the tech guys a lot of work. This might save money over mass protests? I don't know, enlighten me.

 

Edited for format

I am bringing my whistler regardless to recheck our cars.  I don't mind checking a car or two if someone needs help. I suspect most heading to the Runoffs are already fairly comfortable with their compression ratio. 

[FTodaro]

If the point of this thread is to point out a bunch of people are cheating up regional motors and getting away with it? Or is the point that people are cheating up Majors motors and getting away with it? Or is it because people are cheating up national championship motors and getting away with it?

The regional cheating has been going on since the beginning and will never go away.

Shame on people cheating up Majors motor. Doubt there will ever be enough tech to catch the cheaters at those events and who the hell wants to go through that invasive testing for a mom championship event.

I am not sure i can answer your question but i would say that mid pack regional guys do not like to get beat by a cheated car anymore that a national guy at a big race. What I have been preaching at our regional events to tech is you have to do tech to keep the lions at bay, otherwise it will get out of hand.

 

Also, it does nothing for the class or the region to allow it to happen, but as you point out. limited time and resources there is only so much you can do. When it gets to the point that it discourages drivers from entering or encouraging drivers to cheat, then you have a big problem. So we have to do what we can.

 

As a group i think we could do a better job of mentoring young/new drivers coming into the sport. Leading by example is a start.

[LarryKing]

How about first non-compliant offense gets the driver a two month suspension from competition, whether the driver was aware or not of the violation (ignorance is no excuse)?

 

Second violation yields a one year suspension.

 

I bet if that happened to a couple "big name drivers", they would become very dissatisfied customers of their current engine builder and seek a remedy. In theory the engine builders would quickly clean-up their act.

 

Or the SCCA could start a sealed SM engine program.

[Qik Nip]

Whew! Just read all seven pages and somehow it seems vaguely familair. This sort of issue has been going on for years in our class. Waaay back it was cheater cams ground on stock billets, then it was lightweight clutches, then cheater fuel. Now it’s outsized compression ratios. The bottom line (and yes, I know it's dissapointing) is that we are competitors and want to take every legal advantage of the rules.

If we could build cars that weighed 200 pounds less than the legal limit - but that by some miracle tipped the track impound scales as ten ponds over the minimum, many of us would. Building engines who's CR's are within (just barely) the rule as tested by a  device specified by NASA and SCCA is exactly what we should expect. That said, we do need a clear definition of what tech enforcement role the Whistler will play and exactly how it's to be used.  And yes even for you Caveman, the sun will rise tomorrow and next year the SM class will still be a great place to compete!

Rick  

[john mueller]

How about first non-compliant offense gets the driver a two month suspension from competition, whether the driver was aware or not of the violation (ignorance is no excuse)?

 

Second violation yields a one year suspension.

 

I bet if that happened to a couple "big name drivers", they would become very dissatisfied customers of their current engine builder and seek a remedy. In theory the engine builders would quickly clean-up their act.

 

Or the SCCA could start a sealed SM engine program.

 

Sealed programs don't work.  just as easy to cheat a seal / bar code / RFID chip as it is anything else.

 

Suspensions and penalties may work but just this dialog alone should probably have a good effect on the number of future over compressed motors.

 

The question is how to deal with the ones that are out there now.  My gut says for the remainder of the season we find a short-term solution so Runoffs and the NASA Western Champs can be run orderly and not be held hostage to protests.  I also say this because I'm afraid of what may be found once that door is opened...  What would happen to the class if 30% or more of the motors are found over?

[LarryKing]

 

Sealed programs don't work. just as easy to cheat a seal / bar code / RFID chip as it is anything else.

 

Does this happen (a lot) in SRF? I'm only asking 'cause I want to know.

 

Also, if you cheat a seal - then you are clearly, blatantly cheating - 0% grey area.

 

 

What would happen to the class if 30% or more of the motors are found over?

 

Then y'all change the rule book so it's legal.

[john mueller]

Pretty sure tech at the Runoffs and West NASA Championships are gonna go something like this...

https://www.youtube....h?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

 

Kidding aside, I think it's great that this is coming to light and absolutely support reigning in compression ratio compliance from our motor suppliers.  I'm just a driver.  I pay (and trust) people to supply and prepare my equipment and I tell them it needs to be compliant.  I don't want anyone to have an unfair advantage...and that includes me.

 

After recently hearing about the whistler/valve-cover issue, I've had to spend the extra $ to make sure the motors for my cars were cc'd/compliant.  I'm confident they will all whistle with the valve covers off and cc correctly.  The last thing I want is to get DQ'd unintentionally.  Been there, done that. 

 

But let me also say this as we approach these witch-hunts...

 

It's always been the case since I started racing karts, if someone is faster than you, they must be cheating.  It certainly couldn't be that they were running stickers when you were on old tires.  Also couldn't be that their car was dialed in from the extra day(s) of testing you skipped and that you've been struggling with your setup.  And even if they were as talented as you are (which is ridiculous to even think), the fact that they have a ton more laps at the track than you do couldn't have anything to do with it.  Nah, couldn't be any of those things....or could it?

 

Sincerely,

Mark (hope I weight more than a duck) Drennan

 

Yeah, you'd better not float Mark...

 

No witch-hunt at the 2014 NASA Western Champs. We should have something sorted out by then.

[Johnny D]

Then y'all change the rule book so it's legal.

 

You can't say that until 10 pages later on the parity thread that hasn't even started yet.

J~

[Sean - MiataCage]

Sean,

I'm not sure why you're being so tough about what NASA is going to do at the West Champs.  It may be a valid question but I'm not going divulge what the tech plans are publicly.  Why don't you register for it and attend and find out first hand.

 

I became aware of all this compression bullshit about 48hrs prior to the Eastern Champs:

• John Adamczky and I got with the head of the NASA Tech Crew and formed a plan to address outliers and protests should they occur.
• Given the short notice, NASA identified a resource to perform the CC should the conditions or situations require it to be done.  It was an independent offsite vendor which would have taken a few days to complete and entire engines would have been impounded and left behind.  Not an ideal situation, but it was in place if NASA Tech determine it was necessary.
• When NASA Tech had the top three cars pull cylinder heads we were checking valve cutback and such.
• Compression numbers were comparable across the cars NASA Whistled (per Katech's operation instructions).  Now, yes it is possible that all the cars Whistled at the Eastern Champs could have had 'high compression'...  However based on other data points NASA gathered it didn't seem probable.

 

I'm rather comfortable with how tech went for the 2014 NASA Eastern Champs.  Yes, it could've gone better, stuff like that can always go better.  I wish we can fully prepare for EVERYTHING but this is not NASCAR, resources are limited.  Now that's not an excuse not to get it right but when something as class changing as this pops-up days prior to a big race, putting the plan together that we had and followed was the best we could do.

 

Hi John,

 

I guess I didn't think asking about how NASA was going to handle newly found (at least to me) technical infractions that appear to be on more than 1 potential front running national vehicle as being tough.  I apologize if it came off wrong.

 

Not suggesting you divulge anything, but I do expect that NASA take a stance prior to that race on the procedure that is going to be used for the Whistler.  VC's on or off, your call but it seems to me that it is a very important decision that needs to be made so competitors know what to expect.  I guess you could go the route of the Whistler instructions and procedure are set forth and in place, but I just figured with what a few of the motor guys and guys in the now have presented that it gives you an opportunity to be the hero in this situation.   I wasn't at the NASA East deal and have no dog in the fight.  Sounds like you guys reacted to it and had a plan in place.

 

I believe that SCCA will be the usual plethora of protests and that sounds like those may not really be able to go anywhere due to time, resources and tools, but no doubt there will be man drama over it.

 

Should be an interesting upcoming month.

 

Sean

[john mueller]

Hi John,

 

I guess I didn't think asking about how NASA was going to handle newly found (at least to me) technical infractions that appear to be on more than 1 potential front running national vehicle as being tough.  I apologize if it came off wrong.

 

Not suggesting you divulge anything, but I do expect that NASA take a stance prior to that race on the procedure that is going to be used for the Whistler.  VC's on or off, your call but it seems to me that it is a very important decision that needs to be made so competitors know what to expect.  I guess you could go the route of the Whistler instructions and procedure are set forth and in place, but I just figured with what a few of the motor guys and guys in the now have presented that it gives you an opportunity to be the hero in this situation.   I wasn't at the NASA East deal and have no dog in the fight.  Sounds like you guys reacted to it and had a plan in place.

 

I believe that SCCA will be the usual plethora of protests and that sounds like those may not really be able to go anywhere due to time, resources and tools, but no doubt there will be man drama over it.

 

Should be an interesting upcoming month.

 

Sean

 

It's taken me 26hrs to figure out what is what so if I've been a dick to anyone I apologize.

 

At the 2014 Western Champs I'm sure we'll be Whistling with and without valve cover to gather data.  I mean if anyone knowingly brings a car with high compression to a major race after the 7+ pages of ranting here they're an idiot.  For a data point I'll have my personal car (99) Whistled at the Western Champs then once I get home I'll have my motor CC'd by an independent vendor to see how all the numbers compare.

 

Nevertheless, I am hopeful that enough data can be found to piece something together in time for Runoffs and the Western Camps that is meaningful enough so the events won't be marred as you hypothesize.

[Johnny D]

Didn't want to get CC'd and then come get whistled at the Western Champs. Then you know who to give dirty looks too.

But no rush, figure it out and do it right.

J~

[tripplej93]

At the 2014 Western Champs I'm sure we'll be Whistling with and without valve cover to gather data.  I mean if anyone knowingly brings a car with high compression to a major race after the 7+ pages of ranting here they're an idiot.  For a data point I'll have my personal car (99) Whistled at the Western Champs then once I get home I'll have my motor CC'd by an independent vendor to see how all the numbers compare.

 

John, if we run the Western Championship with our 1.6, we will be happy to do the same thing for your data points.   It is one of the faster 1.6's around (and almost always faster at the end of the straight than our dreaded VVT car, happy to share that data) and if I can help keep the class clean would love to be a part of the solution.   I built the bottom end, good guy did the head, so I am pretty comfortable the motor will pass any tech.

[tripplej93]

And we are going to Monterey TO be torn down with our VVT car.   We will be disappointed if we are not.

[john mueller]

John, if we run the Western Championship with our 1.6, we will be happy to do the same thing for your data points.   It is one of the faster 1.6's around (and almost always faster at the end of the straight than our dreaded VVT car, happy to share that data) and if I can help keep the class clean would love to be a part of the solution.   I built the bottom end, good guy did the head, so I am pretty comfortable the motor will pass any tech.

 

Right now there are 15 cars registered so over two days I hope to see most the cars either on the dyno Whistled or both.

 

Didn't want to get CC'd and then come get whistled at the Western Champs. Then you know who to give dirty looks too.

But no rush, figure it out and do it right.

J~

 

I'm hopeful a solution can be found prior to Runoffs too...  I may be the NASA guy but the good of the class comes first.  Finding a way to keep the existing rules in place and have an easily repeatable process to test is my aim.

[Bench Racer]

The new procedure really needs to be done VC removed to be accurate.  Yes it adds 2 minutes for a 99 and 5 for a VVT, but it's worth it, and is a heckuvalot easier and practical than a teardown and CC for a check at any race event.  

 

Variances in valve cover castings, as well as forward rearward shifts in VC mounting, all can have small impacts on the reading with the cover on.

 

Remove the VC eliminates the variability and makes the Whistler a pretty accurate tool.  

 

Perhaps a +0.1 tolerance should be added to the rules, to be sure, as the current rule has ZERO tolerance, as CR is specifically listed as an "Absolute Maximum".  

 

Part of the Whistler use process as written today:

 

7. Determine correct spark plug adapter and install it in place of the spark plug (minimal torque is required). In some cars, especially overhead cam vehicles with spark plugs well down in the engine, it may be necessary to remove the valve cover to get an accurate reading.

 

What is new since a month ago within point 7. of the Whistler use process as written today.

 

Please explain how differences in valve covers and mounting positions impact the Whistler readings.

 

Please explain what you call, the Whistler is a pretty accurate tool.  % of a point tolerance?

 

Doesn't adding a plus tolerance to a maximum number continue to allow folks to game the compression ratio. There are other rules with measurements that have maximmum numbers.