856 replies to this topic

[Tom Phillips]

Assuming compression is under control you could get all cars to the same peak HP with an SIR, and that should definitely be considered, but a built engine will make more power at lower RPM before the flow restriction cuts in. I would envision racing a non-built car of the same year versus a built one with an SIR as racing a 1.6 vs a 1.8 with the same power. With an SIR instead of a flat plate the 1.8 would also get even more of a torque advantage, so something more (like a lighter flywheel) would have to be done about the 1.6.

 

IMO a sonic restrictor won't do anything to solve this issue at a national level - all the same tech still needs to be done - but it could be really nice for regional racers even if it only changes one advantage of a built car. Just muting the top end would be really helpful if it kept a slower car in the draft. That would tighten up fields quite a bit wouldn't it? 

 

Thoughts?

[Steve Scheifler]

We already have flat plates, but the sonic type is supposed to impact the torque curve as well. Need to read up on it.

Flywheel idea always comes up but is mostly worthless in our case. Less rotating mass to accelerate is great off the line or in low-gears auto crossing, But by 4th gear it helps very little for the simple reason that we are accelerating so little. That's why long dyno pulls show so much less gain/loss from rotating mass than sort ones.

[Bench Racer]

While torque is coming up over and over lately within this thread, please look at the data curves below from 2013. Thanks Jim Drago.

Steve, while you checking the SIR, please keep in mind, there are a lot of 1.6's still racing. The 1.6 torque SUCKS below 5,500 rpm and many times we race with 1.6's and all other cars below 5,500 RPM. Not sour grapes, just facts, stick with the torque. My 1.6 has way more capability than the spacer between the seat and the steering wheel.

 

 

[Johnny D]

While torque is coming up over and over lately within this thread, please look at the data curves below from 2013. Thanks Jim Drago.

Steve, while you checking the SIR, please keep in mind, there are a lot of 1.6's still racing. The 1.6 torque SUCKS below 5,500 rpm and many times we race with 1.6's and all other cars below 5,500 RPM. Not sour grapes, just facts, stick with the torque. My 1.6 has way more capability than the spacer between the seat and the steering wheel.

 

 

 

I know where your going and you haven't said the "P" word yet but why don't you and Steve start a new thread on building a better mouse trap.

 

FYI, I'm all for not having to buy a pro built and everyone running within a set of Tq/Hp parameters at each RPM level, no matter how you get there.

Just Dyno's can be fooled, real time on board data ??

Carry on.

J~

[Steve Scheifler]

I think the idea would be the same as now, keep the 1.6 at full "legal" strength and bring the others down as close as reasonably practical, and then fine-tune with weight. The difference, hopefully, is better control over a broader range of the power band.

In the chart, is red a1.6?

[MPR22]

I am a bit taken aback by the responses to this issue at this point.  I seem to be the only one who wants to see the what was deemed non-compliant at the run-offs. 

 

Not one person that has personally inspected the heads in question has posted a description of what was found let alone a photograph.  

 

This is absurd, the usual suspects are wanting to re-write the rules and now we have Danny and other well respected drivers jumping off the cliff  over something they have no first person knowledge of.  

 

 

We have let the class doomsdayers scream everyone is cheating yet have no hard evidence of the actual infraction.  

 

Before you say, "  the SCCA Tech called the heads illegal"  think about this,  they were so uncomfortable with their findings that they only moved the drivers to the back and didn't DQ.  I personally have never seen anything like that in any racing organization for a non-compliant car.  

 

 

Instead we have people begging to re-write rules, we have people wanting to do away with all allowed modifications, we have people wanting to change entire engine packages.  

 

How bout we just tech the stuff we have "for real" and hold people accountable with real punishments when found non-compliant.  

 

This need to reshape the class is ridiculous.  IT IS THE MOST POPULAR AMATEUR ROAD RACING CLASS IN THE USA.  If its so fuckking broke why does it continue to thrive !!? 

[Steve Scheifler]

It is way off where it was.
It is far less broken than at many points in the past
You can reasonably assume that that pictures I posted are representative of some actual hardware that failed tech

I will pay to have at least two of the actual heads shipped to me and back so I can do what you ask. So far all I get are pictures.

[Tom Phillips]

I wasn't talking about parity! Lets not go there - more important things to discuss here. This was addressing someone's suggestion that restrictors could be used to control hp creep in built engines.

 

I thought the idea with the SIR was to accurately cap HP (max airflow) without effecting torque (lower flows), but maybe I'm wrong. I think GT classes use them to limit RPM for the sake of reducing cost. Supposedly they stop flowing very suddenly at a certain point, when the air would have to go supersonic, but unlike a flat plate they don't have turbulent losses (?) at lower flows.

 

My thought was that they could therefore be applied to cars across all years rather than as a parity measure. Otherwise this is only a parity issue and should be moved to a separate thread.

 

Even if this were done all the same rules would need to be enforced. Not a magic bullet.

[davew]

Forgive my ignorance, but maybe someone could answer some of these basic questions for me which would help me understand why the class arrived at pro built engines that cost thousands upon thousands of dollars.

1. Was the difference in stock heads really so great that it warranted allowing engine builders to open up the engine and begin machining them? 
2. Did people really used to spend thousands of dollars and hours digging through the parts bin to find the best "stock" parts? If yes, was that really worse than the current situation where everyone is forced to open their engines up to machine them?
3. Besides the issue being discussed now, is there anything else inside the engine that can be machined by an engine builder? That is, how open is this can of worms? (again, forgive my ignorance). 

It just seems to me that there are two competing interests which you will seemingly never be able to complete merge - low cost vs absolute parity. If you want to have parity, you need to accept higher costs. If you want to have lower costs, you have to accept less parity. Is that completely off base?

 

1: YES

2: YES

3 :YES, Can is opened, but nobody wants to stick the head inside. Yet

[Johnny D]

What??, it's the circus.

Everyone's got a agenda

Danny's running for Class Prez.

Dan's pushing for change so he doesn't loose everything fixing the prob.

High Chairs doing what right.

Steve's looking for something that will make this not happen again.

Tune in next for....

J~

[MPR22]

It is way off where it was.
It is far less broken than at many points in the past
You can reasonably assume that that pictures I posted are representative of some actual hardware that failed tech

I will pay to have at least two of the actual heads shipped to me and back so I can do what you ask. So far all I get are pictures.

Pictures can be deceiving without scale.  Not sure how large the blend is versus the cut, but it sure looks well within the 12mm permitted.  One of my original questions was where in the rules does it say what type of cutter must be used?  Where does it say it can't be a step bit?  If the cut and the offending blend are made by the same cutter within the 12 mm area how do the rules address that?   

[Andrew Charbonneau]

My agenda is to race cant work on a car what happens to us with no wrench and no understanding that's what spec was supposed to be  

[Steve Scheifler]

Pictures can be deceiving without scale. Not sure how large the blend is versus the cut, but it sure looks well within the 12mm permitted. One of my original questions was where in the rules does it say what type of cutter must be used? Where does it say it can't be a step bit? If the cut and the offending blend are made by the same cutter within the 12 mm area how do the rules address that?

That was a major point in the appeal. Good question but no clear answer, which I guess is the definition of a grey area.

[Tom Sager]

My agenda is to race cant work on a car what happens to us with no wrench and no understanding that's what spec was supposed to be

 

I have similar issues.  The problem here is that the same guys that we race against who also build our engines and also write the rules don't control tech.  We need to put them in charge of tech.    

[Glenn]

.  We need to put them in charge of tech.    

Yall WHINED when that actually happened.....

[Johnny D]

Yall WHINED when that actually happened.....

 

What, like you need to do a complete teardown after a new track record ??

J~

[KW78]

I have similar issues.  The problem here is that the same guys that we race against who also build our engines and also write the rules don't control tech.  We need to put them in charge of tech.    

 

This is so ridiculous I can't tell if your joking   (no offense)

 

Tech Shed:

 

"Hey Ebby, see this pocket porting here?"

"Ya, been doing that for awhile, let'er go.  You see this popup piston in this guys motor?"

"Oh ya, we didn't want to cut the head yet so we got er positive deck a little, its OK..."

"Say did we get these bump sticks off the list this year?  Didn't bring the cam doc.."

"Ya.  Knew we wouldn't want to be here sunday night.   Say is it 30 minutes yet? "

 

That's my best charbeneauoo impression after meeting him once.  He beat me at pool.

 

Kyle

[KW78]

 

How bout we just tech the stuff we have "for real" and hold people accountable with real punishments when found non-compliant.  

 

This need to reshape the class is ridiculous.  IT IS THE MOST POPULAR AMATEUR ROAD RACING CLASS IN THE USA.  If its so fuckking broke why does it continue to thrive !!? 

 

I actually agree with this, but if there is the opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone why not.  I can't really tow to daytona with a 12 mph trap speed difference (at Road America) or more expected on that big oval.

 

 

Assuming compression is under control you could get all cars to the same peak HP with an SIR, and that should definitely be considered, but a built engine will make more power at lower RPM before the flow restriction cuts in. I would envision racing a non-built car of the same year versus a built one with an SIR as racing a 1.6 vs a 1.8 with the same power. With an SIR instead of a flat plate the 1.8 would also get even more of a torque advantage, so something more (like a lighter flywheel) would have to be done about the 1.6.

 

IMO a sonic restrictor won't do anything to solve this issue at a national level - all the same tech still needs to be done - but it could be really nice for regional racers even if it only changes one advantage of a built car. Just muting the top end would be really helpful if it kept a slower car in the draft. That would tighten up fields quite a bit wouldn't it? 

 

Thoughts?

 

Just add the sonic in line to our existing weight and ruleset.  I didn't mean to say replace the flat plate with it.  The flat plate still attenuates the midrange to achieve the parity level (whatever that may be) now between the different models.  If it is a clip to 120hp (or whatever a real number is that a street motor can achieve) then the performance envelope between the have's and have nots in the motor department, is shrunk considerably.

 

The biggest wallet will still win likely, as in all racing.

 

 

"Looks like ~$375 delivered for a sonic restrictor. I wonder what kind of discount they would give to be the spec for SM?"

 

I wonder if we throw them an extra $100 each  if they will do the R&D to make it work perfect for our engine set specifically and develop an easy install kit, and by next year...

 

just my .02

Kyle

[Tom Sager]

Yall WHINED when that actually happened.....

 

You won't find yall up here.  

[Andrew Charbonneau]

that was pretty good kyle understand you well lol

 

this is time for all of us to get it right  my opinion time too vote or set the line in the sand time