Everything Runoffs 2014
#721
Posted 10-16-2014 10:59 AM
1976 4th Grade Bowling Series-Most Improved
#722
Posted 10-16-2014 11:14 AM
How do you find that little switch under the dash? You know, the one that lowers the HP. Without thinking too hard about ways to do that, even a simple change in resistance on the wire from a temp sensor can trick the ECU into thinking it is hot so it pulls timing and adds fuel, or whatever self preservation measures it takes.How about dyno the three podium cars and three others cars at random (six cars total) RIGHT after every major race and post the HP/torque curves + the engine builder along with the race results? "Wow, you won with +10hp against everyone else across the rpm range. Good work!".
Dyno at the track is not the answer.
- Ron Alan and Charlie Hayes like this
#723
Posted 10-16-2014 11:24 AM
How do you find that little switch under the dash? You know, the one that lowers the HP. Without thinking too hard about ways to do that, even a simple change in resistance on the wire from a temp sensor can trick the ECU into thinking it is hot so it pulls timing and adds fuel, or whatever self preservation measures it takes.
Dyno at the track is not the answer.
Oddly, it seems to work fairly well for NASA's Super Touring and Performance Touring classes which include a power/weight formula. Sure, you could cheat, but that would be an obvious cheat with specific intent when you got caught.
#724
Posted 10-16-2014 11:42 AM
SM is different than almost any other class, and certainly any near stock production based class. Inherently close because it is semi-spec, and slow and easy to drive. And there are a disproportionate number of good drivers who want very badly to win. That feeds on itself and produced a great class in terms of close competition but also brings out the people willing to work harder, exploiting every angle.
So the short answer is, I don't think your examples are in fact comparable.
- Duncan, Caveman-kwebb99 and Brian Ghidinelli like this
#725
Posted 10-16-2014 11:53 AM
"Just ideas, maybe bad ones. I'm not an engine internals expert. Maybe you need a SMEBAC (Spec Miata Engine Builders Advisory Council)."
Would this be the foxes guarding the chicken house?
How about SM tech advisor ?
There's always someone saying "he's Cheeating".
How about give him the job for the weekend ??
Maybe he'll find something or maybe he'll shut up.
Could you put a system in the car for that weekend/day and catch them that way??
Also how about speed traps?
J~
- Jim Daniels - FIG likes this
#726
Posted 10-16-2014 12:00 PM
You think it works. And it may for the most part, but hard to prove.
SM is different than almost any other class, and certainly any near stock production based class. Inherently close because it is semi-spec, and slow and easy to drive. And there are a disproportionate number of good drivers who want very badly to win. That feeds on itself and produced a great class in terms of close competition but also brings out the people willing to work harder, exploiting every angle.
So the short answer is, I don't think your examples are in fact comparable.
In NASA NorCal the top finishing Spec E30 competitors are dyno'd and have their sheets posted. That's more directly comparable.
#727
Posted 10-16-2014 12:01 PM
You think it works. And it may for the most part, but hard to prove.
SM is different than almost any other class, and certainly any near stock production based class. Inherently close because it is semi-spec, and slow and easy to drive. And there are a disproportionate number of good drivers who want very badly to win. That feeds on itself and produced a great class in terms of close competition but also brings out the people willing to work harder, exploiting every angle.
So the short answer is, I don't think your examples are in fact comparable.
There's obviously no "perfect' solution. Adding a secret switch to throw off a dyno test is an "angle" of an entirely different sort and only a small minority of racers would resort to something like that, I think. There would be no plausible deniability and the stakes in terms of reputation risk are much higher if/when one gets caught -- both for the racer and the shop who built/maintained the car. So I wouldn't throw dynos away so quickly, if only as an additional layer of compliance enforcement.
Btw, if you know how to fool a dyno with a switch, probably most other mechanically savvy racers/builders do too. If someone suspected that you had extra 10hp on the track which are not showing on the dyno, then protesting, looking for (and finding) the switch should be no more hard or complicated than tearing apart the engine and ensuring that dozens of measurements (both inside and outside the engine) are within their mm spec.
- RazerX likes this
#728
Posted 10-16-2014 12:05 PM
Btw, if you know how to fool a dyno with a switch, probably most other mechanically savvy racers/builders do too. If someone suspected that you had extra 10hp on the track which are not showing on the dyno, then protesting, looking for (and finding) the switch should be no more hard or complicated than tearing apart the engine and ensuring that dozens of measurements (both inside and outside the engine) are within their mm spec.
Btw, if you know how to fool a dyno with a switch, probably most other mechanically savvy racers/builders do too. If someone suspected that you had extra 10hp on the track which are not showing on the dyno, then protesting, looking for (and finding) the switch should be no more hard or complicated than tearing apart the engine and ensuring that dozens of measurements (both inside and outside the engine) are within their mm spec.
In the SCCA it would be very hard to write a protest to go looking for a switch, it would get overturned as a whitch hunt. Now if you exactly where the switch was and hoe it was working then yes you could protest, but that would take you having intimate knolweldge of the other car.
No idea how a protest in NASA is treated as I have never protested or seen a protest, maybe things like that work there I have no idea
K. Webb
Powered by East Street Racing (Best engines in Spec Miata)
Driver coach, Spec Miata Prep shop, Spec Miata Setup
2016 Hard Charger award passing 12 cars runoffs 2016 Mid Ohio
2016 P3 RUNOFFS OVER 40 DIVISION LOL!
2015 First consolation prize Northern Conference Majors Title Pageant
2015 Winner Circus Cat Majors Road America
2015 Winner BlackHawk Majors crash fest
My Signature is still not as long as Danny boy's
#729
Posted 10-16-2014 12:16 PM
My main point is that even if fooling a dyno with a switch was BOTH easier to do and harder to catch, the stakes involved when caught are much higher and punitive than possibly any other "trick" in the book. Can you imagine being caught with a dyno switch?
#730
Posted 10-16-2014 12:17 PM
Ron
RAmotorsports
#731
Posted 10-16-2014 12:18 PM
Btw, if you know how to fool a dyno with a switch, probably most other mechanically savvy racers/builders do too. If someone suspected that you had extra 10hp on the track which are not showing on the dyno, then protesting, looking for (and finding) the switch should be no more hard or complicated than tearing apart the engine and ensuring that dozens of measurements (both inside and outside the engine) are within their mm spec.
In the SCCA it would be very hard to write a protest to go looking for a switch, it would get overturned as a whitch hunt. Now if you exactly where the switch was and hoe it was working then yes you could protest, but that would take you having intimate knolweldge of the other car.
No idea how a protest in NASA is treated as I have never protested or seen a protest, maybe things like that work there I have no idea
NASA has used Traqmates in the past to help measure HP against the dyno. You can fool the dyno but it would take away your secret switch if you had the datalogger in your car if your car all of the sudden accelerates like it has 10, 15, 50 more hp.
I think this discussion is way way off topic. As a racer looking to jump from PTE to SM next season, I am looking forward to how the new rules shake out.
#732
Posted 10-16-2014 12:19 PM
Definitely no perfect solution, but there are some that give a misleading perception of protecting the masses, which actually just helps take the heat off those willing to cheat.My main point is that even if fooling a dyno with a switch was BOTH easier to do and harder to catch, the stakes involved when caught are much higher and punitive than possibly any other "trick" in the book. Can you imagine being caught with a dyno switch?
Admittedly some of the current problems are that builders are competing with each other, delivering engines and whole cars that stretch every limit. And to your point, most of that does not require the owner to be knowingly complicit in anything that crossed the line. Simple ways to cheat the dyno would. So I don't discount it completely but I can imagine extreme ways around even that.
Without putting too fine a point on it, a lot of drivers at the front would probably welcome such a plan because most people would be surprised by how small the power differences are.
#733
Posted 10-16-2014 12:24 PM
No but I can imagine that alot of people completley unknowingly right now today have illegal cylinder heads, and a dyno will never catch that the only way is a fully torn down head via protest.
I like the dyno but it is easily defeated any smart cheater is not going to bring 10hp more to race, he will most likely have 2-5 in a class like SM.
Can we tell he had alot fo straight line speed yes, but most of us have trained ourselves that he got to WOT before us, it takes a few laps around him for any of us to be sure of what we are really seeing. and dont kid yourslef in this class 2+hp is significant and YES it can win a race for you. Equal setup and driving always favors the strongest car!
And I believe some woudl put a switch in their car if the dyno was the "BAR" and it would be tough to catch or prove.
- Jim Daniels - FIG likes this
K. Webb
Powered by East Street Racing (Best engines in Spec Miata)
Driver coach, Spec Miata Prep shop, Spec Miata Setup
2016 Hard Charger award passing 12 cars runoffs 2016 Mid Ohio
2016 P3 RUNOFFS OVER 40 DIVISION LOL!
2015 First consolation prize Northern Conference Majors Title Pageant
2015 Winner Circus Cat Majors Road America
2015 Winner BlackHawk Majors crash fest
My Signature is still not as long as Danny boy's
#734
Posted 10-16-2014 12:33 PM
The dyno like the whislter and the GO NoGO tools are all just that tools. All of them used together in a tech plan help with keeping things in check, but this is not about that and none of the above tools could correct what happened at the runnoffs.
Some believe it is legal what was done some dont that is what this thread is about. I personally believe that the horse has already left the barn on this one but that is just my opinion.
Even if this is not legalized I highly doubt that more then the front runners will ever correct this in their cylinder heads as they either dont want to beleive its there or they know they are mid packers who will never be checked and are not going to go spend $$$ to check their head or correct if it needs to be done. this is no 2+ hp increase IMO and again i like Steve have no testing data to back that statement up.
- Jim Daniels - FIG likes this
K. Webb
Powered by East Street Racing (Best engines in Spec Miata)
Driver coach, Spec Miata Prep shop, Spec Miata Setup
2016 Hard Charger award passing 12 cars runoffs 2016 Mid Ohio
2016 P3 RUNOFFS OVER 40 DIVISION LOL!
2015 First consolation prize Northern Conference Majors Title Pageant
2015 Winner Circus Cat Majors Road America
2015 Winner BlackHawk Majors crash fest
My Signature is still not as long as Danny boy's
#735
Posted 10-16-2014 12:36 PM
How do you find that little switch under the dash? You know, the one that lowers the HP. Without thinking too hard about ways to do that, even a simple change in resistance on the wire from a temp sensor can trick the ECU into thinking it is hot so it pulls timing and adds fuel, or whatever self preservation measures it takes.
Or trick the ECU to think the temp is happy as a clam in mud and never retard the timing??!!!
Odds are this is already in play?
Ron
RAmotorsports
#736
Posted 10-16-2014 12:37 PM
I'm right with you until that point, but I don't think opening up porting is the answer. I had hoped, but without testing to support it, that the plunge cut rule would on average bring things a little closer for anyone who actually wanted to be competitive without costing much, but be small enough to not leave the rest totally in the dust. But even with that small allowance the flow bench work began so they could eek out yet a tiny bit more at much higher incremental cost. Predictable, but maybe overall still closer than before we took the plunge. Maybe.
Any more porting means a lot more flow bench work and those with access to a bench and a big pile of old heads or the ability to keep replacing and removing metal in search of the perfect shape within the specs will do whatever it takes. Meanwhile the guy with a Dremmel tool and specs will try not to slip and ruin his one head, and at best end up with vanilla porting. I have little doubt that the net differences will increase, the cost of a "pro" engine will increase, and the guy who can't go there or wants to keep the car legal for multiple classes will be significantly further behind.
I'm not totally paranoid about rules creep but each option needs to be projected forward knowing that the same bunch, or those who inevitably come next, will find every legal advantage from it and then start looking for more in the shadows, just like this time. I think more porting would give the "haves" a much bigger legal advantage than they have now even with the grey area. It would take a lot of testing to prove that one way or the other but I think it is probable, and for certain that would be the perception promoted by the builders to sell more heads.
I love it when smart people work on problems. Their thought process seems so...... I don't know.... whats the word........rational? Yeah that's it
#737
Posted 10-16-2014 12:39 PM
Does anyone have $ riding on the decision being repealed? (besides the top 10)
J~
#738
Posted 10-16-2014 12:45 PM
There's obviously no "perfect' solution. Adding a secret switch to throw off a dyno test is an "angle" of an entirely different sort and only a small minority of racers would resort to something like that, I think. There would be no plausible deniability and the stakes in terms of reputation risk are much higher if/when one gets caught -- both for the racer and the shop who built/maintained the car. So I wouldn't throw dynos away so quickly, if only as an additional layer of compliance enforcement.
Btw, if you know how to fool a dyno with a switch, probably most other mechanically savvy racers/builders do too. If someone suspected that you had extra 10hp on the track which are not showing on the dyno, then protesting, looking for (and finding) the switch should be no more hard or complicated than tearing apart the engine and ensuring that dozens of measurements (both inside and outside the engine) are within their mm spec.
Since you may not know, or even race SCCA, you can't protest a car for 10 more HP and go rooting about their engine/car. You have to protest a specific item at least 30 minute PRIOR to a race. The stewards could waive the 30 minute requirement using the exemption clause, but you still have to be specific in your protest.
James York
sponsored by:
Stan's Auto Center, Lafayette LA
powered by:
East Street Racing, Memphis TN
2003 Spec Miata
#03
#739
Posted 10-16-2014 12:50 PM
Wow, quite the pickle. No easy solution.
Something to be said about picking your car out of a hat before the race as I will be doing with Skip Barber this weekend at Limerock.
#740
Posted 10-16-2014 12:50 PM
IMHO Dyno doesn't work. Fiasco at atlanta, and we won the championship in spec 944. You are allowed to adjust the car on the dyon with timing, fuel - to a specific HP. Problem is, we'd set max then dyno would change - next thing we pull 8hp out to be compliant, but everyone does until they replace weather station... etc etc . We spent 1300 in dyno fees and 7 hours in line over 3 days on track.
No dyno at track!
Spec miata is closer because non-enforceable specs have been allowed with rules creep, like timing and fuel pressure. Any class changes need to be only if it makes a routine big event tech function better. I still think adding a SIR to clip HP is the only option I see that accomplished easier tech and smaller performance envelope difference with the motor, between big $ efforts and Joe Schmoe efforts. To me that will be better racing. (Add a megasquirt, and external rev limiter and I really can't imagine much magnitude in the differences found in motors now that we are trying to enforce with invasive inspection)
Trying to keep it simple should be a goal here IMO.
Kyle
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users