296 replies to this topic

[38bfast]

NOTHING will make modifying the heads go away, just make it become more cheaty/expensive:

• There is significant variation in stock heads due to core shift.
• There are ways of massaging a head that looks stock in the end. 
• No one can tell with certainty whether the beneficial profile of the port/bowl area is normal production variation or the work of someone skilled in EDM. 
• No one is going to put up with mass teardowns at events all over the country, so the middle of the pack will remain cheated up in the existing way and the front of the pack with the high dollar EDM worked heads. 
• Even if tech detects something they think is fishy in the head, the stewards are not going to DQ because stock heads have such large variation in profiles. Even if the stewards take action, the racer will prevail on appeal. There is just not enough precision in the original castings. Period. Of course, this is for SCCA... NASA will just take them out in the back 40 and shoot them. Oh wait, that will lose them customers. Scratch that. 

Sorry to poop on your 'let's all go to stock heads' parade, but come one.... we are smarter than that.

Exactly why the rule for the plunge cut. It take away the majority of variation.

[suck fumes]

As Michael said, if we could develop a Spec Miata head for each Miata engine by CNCing the heads to maximum flow rate, any further work would be futile and probably counter productive. Once this had been implemented, we could then adjust weights and restrictor size to equalize all cars.

If you had a CNC'd head and decided to leave the class, you could probably get a premium price for your car.

The 1.6 and NA 1.8 could then become relevant again.

BTW I had Lingerfelder CNC a pair of Corvette heads using their CNC patterns this included new valves, springs and retainers for $1800. That's about $900 for each head using my core. That is less than we are paying for pro built heads right now.

Word!! I can build a bad ass mustang engine for what it cost to buy a blueprinted more or less stock Miata engine.

[KentCarter]

You are saying that the folks at Mazda, who race all over the world, can't provide an example of what to expect.   That is much like saying they can't alter rules less member input of two different sanctioning bodies. 

No... they can't. They can't recall all the variation that existed in OEM heads over the entire production run of new and crate motors. 

 

Now, if you are saying that they can control variation on a NEW run of heads for the NA1.6, NA1.8, NB and beyond, I say 'Yes, I agree... they can.' 

 

Is that what we are saying? That we are allll going to be forced to buy new heads in order to be considered compliant? That an untouched Ebay or junkyard head won't be safe? 

[Pat Ross]

Suck Fumes,

 

I agree,  I just checked on Lingenfelter's web site and they will CNC two LS3 heads for $1090 or $545/head.  That includes the 3 angle valve job.

 

If we could get a Miata head CNC'd for the same amount (lots less metal to machine) anyone could build their own head for less than we are paying for pro-built heads.  That probably isn't much more than it costs for a good valve job at your local machine shop.

 

BTW the heads went onto a 417 cid LS3 that I finished recently that cost $25k.  But it has $8k worth of ignition electronics and a dry sump system.  It  produced slightly over 700 hp and slightly over 600 lb-ft of torque on the engine dyno, unturned.  Its sitting in my garage waiting to go into my BMW.

[mdavis]

Suck Fumes,

 

I agree,  I just checked on Lingenfelter's web site and they will CNC two LS3 heads for $1090 or $545/head.  That includes the 3 angle valve job.

 

If we could get a Miata head CNC'd for the same amount (lots less metal to machine) anyone could build their own head for less than we are paying for pro-built heads.  That probably isn't much more than it costs for a good valve job at your local machine shop.

 

BTW the heads went onto a 417 cid LS3 that I finished recently that cost $25k.  But it has $8k worth of ignition electronics and a dry sump system.  It  produced slightly over 700 hp and slightly over 600 lb-ft of torque on the engine dyno, unturned.  Its sitting in my garage waiting to go into my BMW.

Potential winner!!!

 

Talked to multiple pro (and I mean Indy/Nascar) engine folks who have these machines and ability to do large numbers in a short period of time.

[KentCarter]

All of these proposals still require the heads to come off and be teched. That means cams out, valves out..... never gonna happen. The cheatin' will continue. 

[Jim Daniels - FIG]

Kent,

I feel for you but obviously you don't understand SCCA racing. They have and will state OEM. They will leave it at that. You will show up and be inspected at their mercy. Over time you will learn what passes tech. You will build to that via trial and error. Then another water ahed moment will happen and we start all over. Do you understand now?

I like this clip, you ate the marines and SCCA is Eastwood.

HeartBreak: http://youtu.be/VWCYv40Ur1g

[KentCarter]

Jim... I get it. I've been doing this long enough to know that this is no solution. 

 

It's going to cost me $2k... maybe $3k to replace a head that I think is legal by today's rules

It's not going to eliminate the modifications, just make them go underground... again

The same people who cheated at the runoffs this time and the last time and the time before that will cheat again

I don't know if my engine is legal now and I won't know if it is after I buy the new head. It will have variation from the guy/gal whose head is sitting on the bench next to me. That doesn't matter if it's a brand new Mazda-provided head, one I get from a junkyard or from my favorite EDM magician. Flip a coin, but some grey-haired, hard-of-hearing old coot who hasn't built an engine since the advent of fuel injection is going to judge their head or mine to be illegal. Might as well play russian roulette with 3 cartridges in the wheel. 

 

These aren't sealed engines and this isn't a workable solution to the issue. 

[Tyler Dahl]

Cnc'd heads with spec'd port volumes and flow. No worries about people modifying then making it look stock. At the same time try to make the heads of all years equal in power as much as possible. I know it's a hoop dream and it costs money but I'd rather spend more up front for this then trying to find the best head out of 3 or more.

Also I like all the engine builders that were found non compliant but I'm going to think twice about doing any business with them in the future.

[john mueller]

After my chat last night with the racers here at the 2014 NASA Western Champs I couldn't get to sleep.  I stayed up way too late mulling this over and sent an email to my resources to explain to me in microscopic detail why we can't quantify/measure the SRT.

 

NASA & SCCA have been told that the STR can not be objectively tech'ed after an 'aftermarket' plunge cut has been made.  If this is true then a rule cannot be written for the STR thus the plunge cut must be eliminated as well.  This is the crux of the problem and why the plunge cut needs to be eliminated...  Regardless, I've heard the masses and I'm digging in to see if there are some other nonconventional ways to measure what we (NASA & SCCA) need to have measured to possibly proceed a different path.

 

I'm not promising ANYTHING right now except I'll take it to the end of the road to at minimum be able to provide complete answers.

 

BTW:  My email is blowing-up, which is good.  Please have some patience, I will read and answer all of them but time this weekend is tough being at the track.  Also, I don't have time to completelt read any of these threads...  If you have a comment please email me (JohnMueller@DriveNASA.com) and I'll eventually get an answer.

[Tom Sager]

After my chat last night with the racers here at the 2014 NASA Western Champs I couldn't get to sleep.  I stayed up way too late mulling this over and sent an email to my resources to explain to me in microscopic detail why we can't quantify/measure the SRT.

 

NASA & SCCA have been told that the STR can not be objectively tech'ed after an 'aftermarket' plunge cut has been made.  If this is true then a rule cannot be written for the STR thus the plunge cut must be eliminated as well.  This is the crux of the problem and why the plunge cut needs to be eliminated...  Regardless, I've heard the masses and I'm digging in to see if there are some other nonconventional ways to measure what we (NASA & SCCA) need to have measured to possibly proceed a different path.

 

I'm not promising ANYTHING right now except I'll take it to the end of the road to at minimum be able to provide complete answers.

 

BTW:  My email is blowing-up, which is good.  Please have some patience, I will read and answer all of them but time this weekend is tough being at the track.  Also, I don't have time to completelt read any of these threads...  If you have a comment please email me (JohnMueller@DriveNASA.com) and I'll eventually get an answer.

John, I'd like to point out that the plunge cut has not been the problem.  It's the finish work beyond the plunge cut.  Given that, I don't think the plunge cut should be thrown under the bus. The plunge cut itself is quite well defined and those cuts when they have been inspected in tech in the past have been measured.  

 

Be prepared for others more knowledgeable than I to submit a sound method to measure the short side.

 

I think it's lousy that we are where we are today (don't we need one of those Hitler videos on this subject right about now?) but reality is beginning to sink in with me.  Are there several hundred heads out there with plunge cuts now?  Probably.  What will the collective spend be if everyone replaces those at $1500-$2000 a copy by the time you factor core, parts, labor?  Approaching $1 million bucks?  Where does that money come from? Racing budgets.  What will happen to all the heads that are removed?  Some on ebay maybe but many probably find there way back on a SM race car one day.  So then what has been accomplished?  

[pat slattery]

John, I'd like to point out that the plunge cut has not been the problem.  It's the finish work beyond the plunge cut.  Given that, I don't think the plunge cut should be thrown under the bus. The plunge cut itself is quite well defined and those cuts when they have been inspected in tech in the past have been measured.  

 

Be prepared for others more knowledgeable than I to submit a sound method to measure the short side.

 

I think it's lousy that we are where we are today (don't we need one of those Hitler videos on this subject right about now?) but reality is beginning to sink in with me.  Are there several hundred heads out there with plunge cuts now?  Probably.  What will the collective spend be if everyone replaces those at $1500-$2000 a copy by the time you factor core, parts, labor?  Approaching $1 million bucks?  Where does that money come from? Racing budgets.  What will happen to all the heads that are removed?  Some on ebay maybe but many probably find there way back on a car one day.  So then what has been accomplished?  

And where does that million go to, many of the engine builders that created this problem

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Pat are you making sense again???? Your on a roll!

[Parity]

My latest letter to NASA:

 

At the risk of kicking a dead horse and focusing on actual solutions rather than just ranting, I'll state this again. I am confident we can develop a method of inspection which techs at the track will be able to use to verify the plunge cut. In our aerospace machining we routinely are tasked with developing inspection methods for difficult areas and methods which can be easily used on the shop floor. I put my facilities at your disposal. Bring me sample heads and we'll get it done.

[Mastek]

 

I think it's lousy that we are where we are today (don't we need one of those Hitler videos on this subject right about now?) but reality is beginning to sink in with me.  Are there several hundred heads out there with plunge cuts now?  Probably.  What will the collective spend be if everyone replaces those at $1500-$2000 a copy by the time you factor core, parts, labor?  Approaching $1 million bucks?  Where does that money come from? Racing budgets.  What will happen to all the heads that are removed?  Some on ebay maybe but many probably find there way back on a SM race car one day.  So then what has been accomplished?  

 

Tom, you are forgetting the obvious - since Mazda Motorsports is directly involved, I fully expect they will provide the SM community with 2,000 new heads free of charge.

< sarcasm mode off>

 

Tom, you are missing the obvious - since Mazda Motorsports is directly involved, I fully expect they will provide the SM community with 1,000 new heads free of charge.  Problem? . . . .  No problem?

< sarcasm mode off>

 

Mike

[Jim Daniels - FIG]

Whats wrong with a 200 pound weight penalty for any non OEM heads? Declare it and then punish any single infraction with a 12 month suspension, $5k fine and loss of component. At some point making parts legal, because tech went years less finding, has to be pulled back.

 

It's ironic to me that on one hand we are complaining that tech can't catch this or that and, on the other hand, we are complaining that they let it "slide" for years so it should be legal.

 

Which is it?   

 

To me, 2006 to now was due to a lack of experience inspecting heads plus the "normal" push of prep from tech shed feedback.  Will S. changed all that this year.  Lots of success all over the nation has been enjoyed by lots of illegal motors for years.  I won a few myself during that time.  But that doesn't mean, at this juncture, it ought to be made legal IMO.

 

Side note, the money part is this is really annoying.  Looking at the cars in SM today, top built machines, what's a few thousand bucks?     

 

Lastly, tech is tech.  Do what you can, volunteers, during the Majors just like all classes, do it "all" at the Runoffs.

[Bruce Wilson]