174 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

I never measure camber at the track unless I am on mine or dragos scale pad setup that has been leveled.

Did you finnaly learn from Drago that using a water level is most accurate process for leveling scales. Learned scale leveling from an older guy.
 

With a NA 4* negative camber is not hard to get, of course it's not legal either, some folks don't care, I do. Sometimes folks that want to cheat and never ending rule changes need to step to a class that allows more open rules.

 

David Dewhurst

[Rob Burgoon]

I agree that measuring camber in tech is a bad idea as stated.

 

 

Allow for unlimited camber.  There's an optimal amount to have, people can tune for it.  If some goof wants 5* of camber, he can have it.

 

Better parity, low cost, AND less tech.

[Roger Caddell]

I agree with many that camber settings/tech checks are hard to get right and be consistent.  How about if you have a camber rule that checked total camber across the front and then rear axles.  Example would be that you have 6 degrees of camber allowed across the front of your SM. Measure both front corners and add the values together and it must be 6 degrees or below.  This removes the exact level surface out of the equation.

[tra68]

+1 for unlimited camber.  A quick review of both tire manufacturers' (Hoosier and Toyo) suggested set-up parameters indicate more camber than my NB can achieve with brand new parts.  Beyond that, the cost involved to increase camber is nominal and doesn't favor fat wallets.

[Kyle Keenan]

I think what Sean is after is the bent spindles. I'd assuming he's just trying to clarify if we should continue to allow people to bend spindles, or keep the rules as written.

[john mueller]

Nasa dyno operators cannot even tie each car down the same way at a championship but they are gonna measure camber for you at the track on some pavement.

 

 

 

NASA will be including a dyno procedure as an appendix to the 2015 SM rules.

 

 

One thing that should be teched is fuel yet it is not unless you go to gateway or maybe the runoffs.

E85 is a HP gain and it is illegal, I believe there are people doing it.

That's a great place to start and it doesn't take a new rule it just takes in forcing rules we have.

Why do we need new rules when we can't even get it together to enforce half the freaking rules we have now.

 

 

NASA usually tests fuel at the Championships, however we did not this past weekend due mainly to lack of time and wanting to focus Sundays tech-time on the group tutorial head tech.

 

 

Minimum ride height and maximum camber rules are a TERRIBLE idea. The pro teams can't even get it right a lot of the time and they are on the scales every session. And to make matters worse, the pro sanctioning bodies can't measure it accurately most of the time.

SM min ride height is already dictated by bump stops.

SM camber - the rules need to be addressed to allow the changes most are already making.

 

 

NASA has a max camber max in many of their classes, I was planning to research it's effectivness.  The prevalence of the "shop bent spindles" needs to go away so maybe at minimum expect to pull you spindles (yes both) at NASA Championship races and have them placed in a jig to check if they are true.

 

Seriously, we're at a crossroad in this class in respect to compliance.  Mazda, SCCA and NASA are committed to leveling the playing field.  The idea of spec classes is to take the car mostly out of the equation and make it drivers class.  I'd expect a lot to change in the next few years to push very hard against the little cheats that add up.

[Todd Lamb]

The prevalence of the "shop bent spindles" needs to go away

Why? How does this make the competition any better, make the cars safer, or make the cars cheaper?

[Todd Lamb]

Duplicate

[Ron Alan]

I must say I think this is silly, we will all need to go to the track to set up our cars on the exact same spot to be sure that we measure our camber where the tech guy will measure it.

I never measure camber at the track unless I am on mine or dragos scale pad setup that has been leveled.

If someone does this in their garage and gets -3.5 he could easily come to the track it read 2.5 or 4.5 depending on if he even knows how to accurately level his scales at home etc.

The more camber you put into the car the more you sacrifice being able to brake hard and late. There are tradeoffs...


I set my car up currently before going to each and every track and yet never have we weighed as close as 5lb to what I weigh on my home scales but camber measurements will somehow be magically the same between home and the track...

Maybe silly but so are a lot of our rules(or NON rules). Huge camber is not a benefit but maybe a # will make some feel more competitive. At Thunderhill they poured a level concrete pad which you just have to drive on...nothing for tech to set up and repeatable. This was in my head when i made my first suggestion. Obviously this is track dependent.

 

As Roger pointed out...you can always get total camber regardless of the surface level.

 

Like Kyle, we always weigh at the track on the track scales. It doesnt matter what you weigh at home or the shop...you will not be going across those scales at the end of your race! 

 

Tip for those who are still new and figuring out all the little nuances. When you get your car set up in your pit under your canopy...mark the pavement with tape around the wheels. If you dont have toe plates or a simple camber gauge...make sure you have made friends with someone that does Measure front and rear toe along with camber at each wheel. Toe will be accurate but what the camber gauge says DOES NOT matter. The number is simply a reference for the next time you do the same thing when you roll back onto the same spot within a couple inches. If you had contact, a big off or banged a curb a litlle hard...if something has moved it is very easy to tell checking camber and toe again. Also remember to roll the car back if you have had it in the air at some point. For those who have to pit in gravel, dirt or grass(we have never), maybe 3 sheets of plywood laid down? 

 

Parity vs. Purity...human nature makes this difficult. But no reason we cant strive for both huh?

 

Sorry...back to new rules!

[FTodaro]

John You know by now I am a fan of yours, but i do not see more things to tech, on top of the pretty weighty list we have to tech now making this easier for the class competitors or the managers, if you will. I never really looked at ride Height and camber as big issues in terms of things we have to control and tech. My big concern is that the list of compliance is getting pretty long and technical now. The one area that scares the beginners is making that transition from having someone do your alignments to doing it yourself. Its costly investment for scales. I could see this requirement making another investment necessary if your going to compete in the class.

 

Maybe its just me but it seems like we have much bigger fish to fry.

[Michael Novak]

NASA will be including a dyno procedure as an appendix to the 2015 SM rules.

 

 

 

 

NASA usually tests fuel at the Championships, however we did not this past weekend due mainly to lack of time and wanting to focus Sundays tech-time on the group tutorial head tech.

 

 

 

 

NASA has a max camber max in many of their classes, I was planning to research it's effectivness.  The prevalence of the "shop bent spindles" needs to go away so maybe at minimum expect to pull you spindles (yes both) at NASA Championship races and have them placed in a jig to check if they are true.

 

Seriously, we're at a crossroad in this class in respect to compliance.  Mazda, SCCA and NASA are committed to leveling the playing field.  The idea of spec classes is to take the car mostly out of the equation and make it drivers class.  I'd expect a lot to change in the next few years to push very hard against the little cheats that add up.

Setup needs to be part of the drivers end everytime...  Spindles and camber are part of it. Checking spindles in a jig I think is a waste of time---if its not spindles it will be the arms if not the arms then the subframe............  People will keep working different parts of the car until they get there---so make it easy for everyone---  This way no matter how you want to setup the car for your driving you can...

 

It says spec miata---not stock miata......   Things that the average racers can do for little to no money that people are going to do no matter what should be considered...    I think the rules are very close and adding a bunch more will not help....

[john mueller]

Setup needs to be part of the drivers end everytime...  Spindles and camber are part of it. Checking spindles in a jig I think is a waste of time---if its not spindles it will be the arms if not the arms then the subframe............  People will keep working different parts of the car until they get there---so make it easy for everyone---  This way no matter how you want to setup the car for your driving you can...

 

It says spec miata---not stock miata......   Things that the average racers can do for little to no money that people are going to do no matter what should be considered...    I think the rules are very close and adding a bunch more will not help....

 

But intentional altering (bent/shorten/lengthen) of a part (spindle/arm/whatever) is not okay.    Would you agree with that statement?   IMO that is the aim of a camber rule...  Stop the shit that should not be going on while most of us know it is.

 

The idea of "if it does not says you can then you can't" has not been in play for many in SM for a very long time and there goes the "spec" part of SM too.  Time to fix that.  NASA, SCCA & Mazda are focused on this, just need to get this STR stuff sorted & parity first.   

[Steve Scheifler]

John, on this I must agree with Michael & Todd. There is nothing inherently evil or immoral about massaging parts if the rules allow. The problem is that when a role against it is unenforcible the honest people always get screwed. So if it is beneficial to everyobe and hurst no one (not expensive or unsafe) then add it to the rules. There is nothing sacred about the list of allowed changes, so let's amend where logical.

And as said above, bending the spindle is just one way it is being done today. Some already use ways that are much harder to detect for fear of being caught some day.

BTW, I own one "magic" spindle purchased directly from Mazda with a manufacturing defect (not damage) which provides substantially more camber. Can you guess what the defect is?

[dfuser]

But intentional altering (bent/shorten/lengthen) of a part (spindle/arm/whatever) is not okay.    Would you agree with that statement?   IMO that is the aim of a camber rule...  Stop the shit that should not be going on while most of us know it is.

 

The idea of "if it does not says you can then you can't" has not been in play for many in SM for a very long time and there goes the "spec" part of SM too.  Time to fix that.  NASA, SCCA & Mazda are focused on this, just need to get this STR stuff sorted & parity first.   

Again its Spec Miata, if you want to run Stock, then its all stock, including shocks and springs.  Leave suspension alone as it stands.  The cars are safe with the setup we have, no need to reinvent the wheel.

[powerss]

NASA will be including a dyno procedure as an appendix to the 2015 SM rules.

 

 

 

 

John, do you know if you are considering an overrun process as part of the procedure?

 

With dynojets, after a pull if you shift to neutral and let it coast down you can get a negative power that can be used to remove rolling resistance variations caused by differences in tie down tensions, tire pressure etc.

 

Steve

[FTodaro]

John, on this I must agree with Michael & Todd. There is nothing inherently evil or immoral about massaging parts if the rules allow. The problem is that when a role against it is unenforcible the honest people always get screwed. So if it is beneficial to everyobe and hurst no one (not expensive or unsafe) then add it to the rules. There is nothing sacred about the list of allowed changes, so let's amend where logical.

And as said above, bending the spindle is just one way it is being done today. Some already use ways that are much harder to detect for fear of being caught some day.

BTW, I own one "magic" spindle purchased directly from Mazda with a manufacturing defect (not damage) which provides substantially more camber. Can you guess what the defect is?

Getting a bad part from Mazda will not save you BTW. Brian Murdick was DQed from a win with a non compliant sway bar that came directly from Mazda. I hate when that happens.

 

How much you want for it? lol.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

BTW, I own one "magic" spindle purchased directly from Mazda with a manufacturing defect (not damage) which provides substantially more camber. Can you guess what the defect is? 

 

You must have read my mind Steve, how many parts are manufactured wrong??? Lots how many manufactures recalls have we had over the years...

[Steve Scheifler]

There is no spec to measure against so different than a sway bar. But, direct comparison with any other stock part would reveal the difference. I think I'd win on appeal though because it can be proven to be unmodified.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

There is no spec to measure against so different than a sway bar. But, direct comparison with any other stock part would reveal the difference. I think I'd win on appeal though because it can be proven to be unmodified.

 

Again you make my point for me.

 

 the problem with the dq on sway bar the measurement was correct but the number printed on the bar was wrong. hard to prove otherwise when the number dont match that is is actually for the application you are using it in even if the size is right.

[Michael Novak]

But intentional altering (bent/shorten/lengthen) of a part (spindle/arm/whatever) is not okay.    Would you agree with that statement?   IMO that is the aim of a camber rule...  Stop the shit that should not be going on while most of us know it is.

 

The idea of "if it does not says you can then you can't" has not been in play for many in SM for a very long time and there goes the "spec" part of SM too.  Time to fix that.  NASA, SCCA & Mazda are focused on this, just need to get this STR stuff sorted & parity first.   

John---I understand where you are coming from---because it is the rule...   I just dont want a rule book for rulebook sake...  I think the idea of the class was lower cost racing...  Thus let bent spindles and other CHEAP mods be added to the rulebook. The front pack will find ways to get enough--thus it lets everyone...  I would make it open--if I were making the rules..  MANY cars can just get to the correct numbers..   Camber adjustments are part of road racing and setup per driver