373 replies to this topic

[OctaneNation]

It would be nice to log the IAT signal and compare it with a third party sensor placed at the filter or TB. I'm wondering if the stock sensor is getting heat soaked and not accurately representing the true air temp.

[Bench Racer]

It would be nice to log the IAT signal and compare it with a third party sensor placed at the filter or TB. I'm wondering if the stock sensor is getting heat soaked and not accurately representing the true air temp.

Presume your talking about the IAT/sensor within the AFM. Providing it doesn't rain this next weekend I'll insert a thermocouple in a hole in the plastic tube just after the AFM and eyeball the temp numbers as driving. I would then presume the thermocouple and the AFM IAT/sensor are seeing the same temp.

 

EDIT:

inserted AFM in two places, oop's.

[Steve Scheifler]

I've never monitored the stock sensor but that's an interesting thought. Having spent hours on the dyno in the past few days I had a few occasions when the power fell off and I couldn't tell why. AFR was spot-on with my baseline runs, actual AIT temp at the filter was the same, oil temp was well below where it might be an issue for the HLAs, and I hadn't touched timing. Working alone I was not able to watch the timing marks but suspected that something was reducing the advance, mostly because there isn't much left. However, I don't think the AFM was particularly hot. Next time I will check that. Anyone know off hand which input to the 1.6 ECU is the AIT?

[OctaneNation]

Not sure which ECU pins they are but when I was logging AFM voltage I found it easiest to tap the signal right under the AFM cover...

[Mike Babcock]

While the ongoing quest for data is compelling, I've become very interested in something like this:

 

http://www.alecmoody.com/cai/

 

What say ye... oh rule gods?  And before you speak, please rest assured I'm referring only to the section that routes the air filter over the radiator support, and down in front of the radiator.  I do realize everything out to the AFM must remain stock.

[Steve Scheifler]

Somebody went to a lot of trouble! But I don't see how it can be used with the stock AFM or anything else. You planning to R&D something similar?

[Mike Babcock]

That's what I'm thinking... it would involve a silicon U hose, which may hurt a bit.  But the 3D print files are there for the taking... so I'm willing to give it a shot if it's legal.

[Bench Racer]

OctaneNation/Tom Hampton/anyone else, on June 7th the following was viewed using ambient air intake. (Tom will be posting pictures in his blog area as Seth sends pictures to Tom.)

Practice session, 66* F ambient, air filter temp 77* F

Qualifying session wet track, 77* F ambient, temp after AFM 94* F.

Including two different weekends at the track last year and three different weekends this year, never viewed filter temp above 100* F.

Race, someone else drove car and no data.

 

On June 27th the following was viewed.

Qualifying session, 80* F ambient,  air filter temp 92* F.

Race session, 80* F ambient, 130* at plastic tube before throttle body.

 

WOW, a 40* F temp increase from AFM to throttle body. If a normal under hood temp for a 1.6 between the AFM and the cam cover is 170* F using power increases of 1% to 1.8% increase per 10* F reduction in temp may not be as good we would believe not knowing of this temp increase. Had this been an 80* F reduction at 1% increase in power, 8% is good, if 1.8% increase in power were true, that would be 14.4% and that would be greater.  Yup, sure, get on with weight the over dog.

 

Anyone care to provide 1.6 under hood temp info between the master cylinder and the cam cover? Thank you.

 

Next I will plot as I view it now of a temp reduction of 40* F/power increase on a dyno plot for a paper view at both 1% and 1.8%. Have no track data system therefore this is all I can do.

 

My next time to the track will be the end of Aug. for a double. My intent is to check the temp between the radiator and the plastic air flow tube. In an attempt to reduce the 40* temp increase I'll illegally wrap the plastic tube between the AFM and the throttle body. Random tech shed check my ass, Mr. Tech Inspector, some one gave you a heads up. Oh well it's for the 1.6 cause. Blake, as I don't have money to do Majors I don't have money to do test days, weird, huh.

 

Saul, where are you, thoughts?

 

Jim, care to join the info share for the 1.6 cool air intake party?    

 

[Tom Hampton]

Bench-

 

What is your temp measurement capability?  It sounds like you are using thermocouples (what type K?), are these bare-wire or encapsulated?  How many points can you measure at once?  Do you log this data, or are you just eyeballing it? 

 

The data above is inconsistently recorded.  So, its hard to draw too many conclusions from it.  But, it is interesting. 

 

I'd really like to see LOGGED data from 5 points, minimum:

 

1. Fresh air inlet in front of the radiator

2. Near the air filter surface. 

3. At the exit of the AFM.

4. At the entrance to the throttle body.

5. Ambient air temp near the surface of the stock air tube, at approximately the middle of its length.  Alternatively, ambient air at the exit of the AFM, and the entrance of the throttle body.

6. Ideally, I'd want to take a couple of extra sets of ambient air temp along the platic tube length to get an idea of the gradient and real heat flux. 

 

If you don't take this data simultaneously, then you really start to infer more and more relationships, which makes the conclusions that you draw less and less useful. 

[Steve Scheifler]

We're not F1 Tom. And we aren't looking to solve the issue of heat picked up along the way through the intake plumbing (though it may be greater than the NBs given location). At the moment all we really need is reliable data to show the delta between ambient and the air temp just inside the filter adapter, with and without the turn indicator mod, while racing under various conditions. Our first goal is to establish that delta and calculate the theoretical benefit of a simple rules change to give the 1.6 a more consistent IAT similar to other models. Then it would be nice to determine whether the temps at the manifold actually drop the same amount, of if the benefit is largely negated by other factors. But if we require research lab quality process and data or get caught up in too many other variables, nothing will ever happen.

[Danny Steyn]

Guys

 

Eric Matoy has done an exceptional job of recording IAT temps under hood on his NA both with the turn signal present and removed. He has submitted very compelling data to the SMAC

Without giving away all the information, the first two data traces show the under-hood IAT temperature change that occurs, starting on lap one, with low temperatures, and climbing to what one would see with a heat soaked engine after several laps. The increase is substantial. In his case, in excess of 20 degrees.

The 2nd two data traces show the results of removing the left turn signal lamp, and allowing cold air to flow into the engine bay, and the temperature change over 8 laps are almost negligible.

I suggest those that know him contact him to find out how he captured and plotted the data. And how he calibrated his thermocouples

The SMAC has all this information but we would like to see additional data points from other NA cars

[Johnny D]

Did you want to make legal the left head light miss align issue I see so many with ?

J~

[Bench Racer]

Did you want to make legal the left head light miss align issue I see so many with ?

J~

 

You'll also find those with the left headlight cover miss aligned have also removed from under the hood a 90* black plastic  piece. Hear ye, hear ye, by rule removing that piece under the hood is illegal. We been through this previously. The rules say, you may remove IIRC the cosmetic trim pieces. By GCR glossary definition trim pieces are attachments whose purpose is cosmetic. These 90* pieces under the hood are not cosmetic.  
 

[davew]

Just to stop the further display of mis-information, here is the rule direct from the GCR

 

g. The plastic trim on the hood may be removed.

 

Since the only  pieces of plastic trim under the NA hood are around the headlight doors, it is pretty straight forward to me that removing the plastic is 100% without a doubt legal. 

 

This was questioned many years ago and deemed legal by the SMAC

 

dave

[Johnny D]

Is Eric's testing without that piece ?

 

I was talking about the head light covers.

1/4" gap on body panels?

Anything else apply?

J~

[Bench Racer]

Bench-

 

What is your temp measurement capability?  It sounds like you are using thermocouples (what type K?), are these bare-wire or encapsulated?  How many points can you measure at once?  Do you log this data, or are you just eyeballing it? 

 

The data above is inconsistently recorded.  So, its hard to draw too many conclusions from it.  But, it is interesting. 

 

I'd really like to see LOGGED data from 5 points, minimum:

 

1. Fresh air inlet in front of the radiator

2. Near the air filter surface. 

3. At the exit of the AFM.

4. At the entrance to the throttle body.

5. Ambient air temp near the surface of the stock air tube, at approximately the middle of its length.  Alternatively, ambient air at the exit of the AFM, and the entrance of the throttle body.

6. Ideally, I'd want to take a couple of extra sets of ambient air temp along the platic tube length to get an idea of the gradient and real heat flux. 

 

If you don't take this data simultaneously, then you really start to infer more and more relationships, which makes the conclusions that you draw less and less useful. 

I use a multi-meter with temp capability. K type thermocouple, joined end bare/brazed?, remainder of wire insulated covered. My goal was/is to obtain temp numbers so that I understand the decreases and increases of air intake temp from ambient through the complete intake track to the throttle body. As per my previous post with details the end of Aug. I will get the temp between the radiator and the plastic intake tube along with having the plastic intake tube wrapped. I will also with the tube wrapped take the temp in the tube approx. 1 1/2 inch from the throttle body. I can be/ am as anal as anyone within my budget restraints. All I desire to complete is knowing for example that under hood air temp is say 170* F or higher and filter temp is under 100* F and hopefully with the temp at the throttle body with the illegally wrapped plastic tube is say 110* F. Under hood temp is say 180* minus throttle body temp of 110*F equals a 70* F reduction in air temp at the throttle body. That would be 7 units of 10* F temp reduction times take your pick of 1% to 1.8% increase in power. For my purposes I'm comfortable there will be a gain. These numbers should be in agreement with others quietly doing similar work.

 

Danny, I will contact Eric Matoy via members pm.

 

My info is for others to ponder and find value or no value. I may write a letter after my end of Aug. track time, if I find my end result of value to the 1.6er's. Again to date my legal temp at air filter from the first time my new build car hit the track has always been under 100*F.   

[Bench Racer]

Just to stop the further display of mis-information, here is the rule direct from the GCR

 

g. The plastic trim on the hood may be removed.

 

Since the only  pieces of plastic trim under the NA hood are around the headlight doors, it is pretty straight forward to me that removing the plastic is 100% without a doubt legal. 

 

This was questioned many years ago and deemed legal by the SMAC

 

dave

SCCA glossary definition of the word "trim" is, "Coverings or attachments whose function is solely cosmetic".

 

Please provide written documentation the SMAC deemed removing this under hood non-cosmetic weather deflector legal.

 

Thorn    

[Steve Scheifler]

If you pull the turn indicator assembly and look in you will see that the flow is still largely obstructed. Disappointing to learn that pulling it was no help, but I would suggest a retest with the headlight bulb removed. May still be negligible but worth a try. Not sure venting (out) at the windshield as some have suggested will help either, but pulling the rubber desk off for a test is easy enough.

Any more ideas for reducing IAT?

[38bfast]

Steve test have shown a significant change in temp via Erics data pulling the turn signal assembly. 

[mhiggins10]

Guys

 

Eric Matoy has done an exceptional job of recording IAT temps under hood on his NA both with the turn signal present and removed. He has submitted very compelling data to the SMAC

Without giving away all the information, the first two data traces show the under-hood IAT temperature change that occurs, starting on lap one, with low temperatures, and climbing to what one would see with a heat soaked engine after several laps. The increase is substantial. In his case, in excess of 20 degrees.

The 2nd two data traces show the results of removing the left turn signal lamp, and allowing cold air to flow into the engine bay, and the temperature change over 8 laps are almost negligible.

I suggest those that know him contact him to find out how he captured and plotted the data. And how he calibrated his thermocouples

The SMAC has all this information but we would like to see additional data points from other NA cars

I don't known Eric Matoy, but I know someone with a 1.6 who will be running a local race for charity this weekend who would probably happily install the test rig to get more data.  Can it be shipped?  How hard is it to install?  What would need to happen?

 

 

Are there any other races going on over the next few weeks?  Perhaps others would volunteer their cars as test subjects?