146 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

Just a FYI.
http://949racing.com...ute-system.aspx
J~

[Jason J Ball]

The 1.6 and 1.8 gang has been bitching for years. But that is all that has happened. if you want change you are going to have to do your homework. Asking for adjustment without validation is not going to cut it. Ball is in your court.

Ralph,

 

We already have all the data you'll ever need to make parity adjustments with entries and wins/podiums for all cars across both sanctions. Why is it that the 1.6l and 1.8l NA cars have to spend money to prove what is already known. Its blatantly obvious that the 1.6l and 1.8l NA needs help to be able to make it on the podium. You can and you should make adjustments for these two cars, just to stop slow march of the class towards 99+ only cars. If that is the ultimate goal, then fine. Sunset the older cars at a reasonable date (i.e. 2017) and we either upgrade or move to another class. Don't continue to tell us that there is nothing that can be done without gathering up all of the drivers, performing lots of testing (while expending resources that will keep us off the track), organizing a campaign, and continue to "BEG" for help! Give us something or combination of things that get us there or above and then you can make weight and plate adjustments from there. I getting real tired of the so called leadership, supposedly there to look out for "OUR" interests, leaving the majority of us out in cold. The 3yr rules freeze has shown that 2300lbs for the 1.6l only hurt our cause. You can reduce the weight back to 2285, or 2275, heck I could get to 2220 since I have ~80lbs on the floor next to me. But it still won't get me to a podium in a decent field. The playing field is stacked in a particular direction here, you have the ability to help balance it. Don't just sit on your hands and wait for some campaign by the NA crowd, use the readily available data right in front of you. 

 

Or we could just use the method that seems to work best, lets all "cheat" with the cold air, header, and a few other items. And when we get caught, we'll say "Well everyone is doing it, so make it legal" Its seems to work well for the NB crowd!

[Cnj]

 
Or we could just use the method that seems to work best, lets all "cheat" with the cold air, header, and a few other items. And when we get caught, we'll say "Well everyone is doing it, so make it legal" Its seems to work well for the NB crowd!

Jason, seriously? You are a 1.6 owner and feel disadvantaged. That's fine, campaign away. But calling all NB drivers cheaters is specious reasoning and hurts your cause.

CNJ.

[38bfast]

Ralph,
 
We already have all the data you'll ever need to make parity adjustments with entries and wins/podiums for all cars across both sanctions. Why is it that the 1.6l and 1.8l NA cars have to spend money to prove what is already known. Its blatantly obvious that the 1.6l and 1.8l NA needs help to be able to make it on the podium. You can and you should make adjustments for these two cars, just to stop slow march of the class towards 99+ only cars. If that is the ultimate goal, then fine. Sunset the older cars at a reasonable date (i.e. 2017) and we either upgrade or move to another class. Don't continue to tell us that there is nothing that can be done without gathering up all of the drivers, performing lots of testing (while expending resources that will keep us off the track), organizing a campaign, and continue to "BEG" for help! Give us something or combination of things that get us there or above and then you can make weight and plate adjustments from there. I getting real tired of the so called leadership, supposedly there to look out for "OUR" interests, leaving the majority of us out in cold. The 3yr rules freeze has shown that 2300lbs for the 1.6l only hurt our cause. You can reduce the weight back to 2285, or 2275, heck I could get to 2220 since I have ~80lbs on the floor next to me. But it still won't get me to a podium in a decent field. The playing field is stacked in a particular direction here, you have the ability to help balance it. Don't just sit on your hands and wait for some campaign by the NA crowd, use the readily available data right in front of you. 
 
Or we could just use the method that seems to work best, lets all "cheat" with the cold air, header, and a few other items. And when we get caught, we'll say "Well everyone is doing it, so make it legal" Its seems to work well for the NB crowd!

The data required is not that a change is needed but what exact change is to be made and to validate those changes.

[Keith Andrews]

 

 

Or we could just use the method that seems to work best, lets all "cheat" with the cold air, header, and a few other items. And when we get caught, we'll say "Well everyone is doing it, so make it legal" Its seems to work well for the NB crowd!

 

 

That's kind of what I've been thinking too.  Maybe not the sentiment but the harping on torque is the answer but not offering an answer has gone no where. 

 

Ernie Jr. had a 1.6 that was very strong, a kid out west AZ, CA had a strong 1.6, the guy in Ron's video has a strong 1.6 (not throwing stones, just an observation).  Some in the know should be able to describe what made or makes those car strong against 99+ cars.  Write that stuff down and send it to the SMAC. 

[Jason J Ball]

The data required is not that a change is needed but what exact change is to be made and to validate those changes.

 

Ralph,

 

How are we currently collecting the data to make changes in parity? We've made weight and/or plate adjustments to all cars and see how they finish in the real world. Well, the data is showing you there is a need for additional changes for parity. We're close, but not quite there. So if we are not going to speed up the NA's, we need to further slow down the NB's. It doesn't look like that will happen! So your solution is that the NA's expend on R&D to prove to you (SMAC) that we need an adjustment that you already agree is needed. Let's start with an "Optional" cold air and header and adjust from there to see how it does in the real world. I'll volunteer to be a test bed, only problem is I have family obligations that only allow me to race 3-4 times a yr.

 

Jason 

[Jason J Ball]

Jason, seriously? You are a 1.6 owner and feel disadvantaged. That's fine, campaign away. But calling all NB drivers cheaters is specious reasoning and hurts your cause.

CNJ.

 

I don't "feel" disadvantaged, I "am" disadvantaged. Anyone who drives an NA car in this class is disadvantaged. And if you think I called all NB owners Cheaters, that's fine with me. Just tell me how the current situation (rules changes to head machining and compression testing) came about! Let me summarize for you, some folks found that by keeping the valve cover on during compression testing the readings came back lower and pushed the compression up until it read to spec knowing full well they were gaining actual compression over spec, and some other folks (maybe the same) took the plunge cut and then massaged the STR a little, and then someone else massaged it a little more, etc... And here we are today with a revised testing plan on compression testing and an allowance for massaging the STR that was clearly not allowed before. Some folks cheated and now that cheat is allowed within the rules, its now a fact for all SM. But its very small you say, a cheat, is a cheat, is a cheat no matter how you sugar coat it. All I was advocating was what the rest of us feel is happening, cheaters get rewarded with now legal cheats. So let the NA crowd join in the FUN and do the same thing since we aren't going to get help any other way.   

[Jason J Ball]

That's kind of what I've been thinking too.  Maybe not the sentiment but the harping on torque is the answer but not offering an answer has gone no where. 

 

Ernie Jr. had a 1.6 that was very strong, a kid out west AZ, CA had a strong 1.6, the guy in Ron's video has a strong 1.6 (not throwing stones, just an observation).  Some in the know should be able to describe what made or makes those car strong against 99+ cars.  Write that stuff down and send it to the SMAC. 

I ran against Ernie Jr. at Road Atlanta, he was quick. He was definitely better than me out of 7, which is most important. I do think that was before they found his header had been massaged on the car though... Lots and lots of parts bin swapping can get you there, but for those of us without those resources we need a better method of getting consistent performance. The biggest gain in consistency for the flapper door crowd would be to eliminate the AFM and go to MAF. 

[Mark Drennan]

Certainly not a new idea but I'll throw it out there again...

 

After years of endless debate with no progress, IMO the best solution is to focus on a 1.6 only class instead of spending a bunch of $'s to create a perversely modified 1.6 that has torque below 5500 but isn't an overdog (vaporware). 

 

Some of the benefits...

- no expense for current 1.6 owners

- car values for 1.6 owners will actually increase...hmmm

- true parity...which better than "Similar" Miata will ever achieve.  Who knows, it may even become the best class over time

 

And for those who say - I want to race with everyone else, you're the same ones complaining about not being competitive when racing with everyone else...well, when you actually race.

 

Flame away.

[James York]

 Let me summarize for you, some folks found that by keeping the valve cover on during compression testing the readings came back lower and pushed the compression up until it read to spec knowing full well they were gaining actual compression over spec, and some other folks (maybe the same) took the plunge cut and then massaged the STR a little, and then someone else massaged it a little more, etc... And here we are today with a revised testing plan on compression testing and an allowance for massaging the STR that was clearly not allowed before. Some folks cheated and now that cheat is allowed within the rules, its now a fact for all SM. 

 

These cheats are not unique to just enhancing 99 performance.....  You can apply your label to people, but not a model of car as all being cheaters.  That is not pertinent to parity.

[James York]

 

And for those who say - I want to race with everyone else, you're the same ones complaining about not being competitive when racing with everyone else...well, when you actually race.

 

 

 

The biggest influence on parity is seat time.  1.6 drivers racing 4 weekends a year will NEVER compete for a podium in a large event (excluding maybe some undiscovered Fernando Alonso types out there).

 

I imagine many people here would be surprised at the time, effort and work the podium finishers put in every year to keep on top.

[LarryKing]

Because ALL one-six drivers race ONLY 4 weekends a year.

 

It's a commonly known fact.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

It shouldn't matter what us 1.6 guys think the proof is in the pudding !

All the smac needs to do is look at the last 3 years of runoffs and see where the 1.6s have finished and there is your answer.
Then it should be up to them to make the changes needed to get closer parity not us. That is the big show and that's the one that matters the most.

This is just like our government letting the housing market crash. They knew it was going to happen they just sat back and collected as much money as they could before shit hit the fan and acted stupid about it ! Just my opinion but I think it is shitty of them and plain lazy or someone just doesn't want to take any heat from helping the 1.6s out !

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Because ALL one-six drivers race ONLY 4 weekends a year.
 
It's a commonly known fact.

And the reasons are they are not competitive !

I used to run a full season but won't waist my money anymore !

[Ron Alan]

Certainly not a new idea but I'll throw it out there again...

 

After years of endless debate with no progress, IMO the best solution is to focus on a 1.6 only class instead of spending a bunch of $'s to create a perversely modified 1.6 that has torque below 5500 but isn't an overdog (vaporware). 

 

Some of the benefits...

- no expense for current 1.6 owners

- car values for 1.6 owners will actually increase...hmmm

- true parity...which better than "Similar" Miata will ever achieve.  Who knows, it may even become the best class over time

 

And for those who say - I want to race with everyone else, you're the same ones complaining about not being competitive when racing with everyone else...well, when you actually race.

 

Flame away.

   

 

So simple....

 

On the other hand I get why the powers that be resist this. Ironically, several regions have run SSM very successfully and short of a few hiccups along the way they seem to be self-maintaining and happy!

 

JJB...the history of SM is "development " never stops! I would bet my left nut 1.6 "developed" cars far outweigh NB cars. Top DRIVERS will always win and fill the top 10...REGARDLESS OF WHAT CAR THEY DRIVE!!!!! Top prepped LEGAL cars are not 2 sec apart in lap times...maybe .1 or .2 and depending on the track NA/NB will flip flop order. And i will further say this is running ALONE!

 

IMO...5 years at RA and maybe a lack of "cherry" NA donors back East have helped the slow demise of the NA. And understand when I say demise I'm referring to top drivers/shops/teams who want to build them. Much slower out West but that changed dramatically the last 1.5-2 years!

 

You act like you expect to just build a basic car, get in it, and compete for a podium based on rules...this will never happen! 

 

 

Worth repeating again...Road America killed the 1.6...be it intentional or not. Laguna threw gas on the fire! Daytona???

[ner88]

There is no way to have absolute parity.

Slowing down the NB even further just ain't gonna happen!

 

How many guys with NA cars would be willing spend the money to go faster to achieve "parity"?

easier and cheaper to just buy a NB.

 

I would bet the majority of NA guys are happy with what they have.

 

SCCA allows regions the ability to structure any class they wish.

 

SSM or SM2 are great options for NA cars.

 

Free the NBs no more restrictors!

 

Edit: I just sold my 1.6 and bought a 99'

[Johnny D]

I agree. ^^

And if parity isn't an issue, maybe car count will go up, if not have a 6 race season ?

 

Rip the band aid off and let the healing begin.

J~

[LarryKing]

And when the NC cars join SM (don't worry, they'll come in as underdogs) then eventually the NB cars can have their own divisional class.

 

It will only sting for a minute.

 

 

Slowing down the NB even further just ain't gonna happen!

 

Any specific reason(s) why?

[Jason J Ball]

These cheats are not unique to just enhancing 99 performance.....  You can apply your label to people, but not a model of car as all being cheaters.  That is not pertinent to parity.

 

James,

 

How is that not pertinent to parity. Its the slow march of SM towards 99+ only. What were the top 9 at the runoffs again??? 

[Jason J Ball]

 

How many guys with NA cars would be willing spend the money to go faster to achieve "parity"?

easier and cheaper to just buy a NB.

 

I would bet the majority of NA guys are happy with what they have.

 

 

 What did you sell your 1.6 for? What did you pay for your 99? I'd say you sold your NA for $8-9k, and paid $15-30k for your NB. For $6000 (min difference between NA & NB) I could improve the 1.6l with intake, header, MAF and Megasquirt and still have $4k left over. So explain to me how it is easier and cheaper?    You just got tired of getting your a$$ kicked and joined the dark side! Believe me, I'm there with you when this chassis cannot be beat out or pulled straight. I just don't like being told your S.O.L. with your current car, go spend $30k on a new one and sell your current one for scrap!