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#41
wreckerboy

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I've watched this and similar threads with interest and some amusement. I'm a 1.6 racer and I have run for the last seven seasons in the WDCR SSM class. Prior to that I ran the car in various EMRA time trial and race series. All told, I've probably got 10,000 miles and 10+ track and race seasons on the car (I've owned it for 18 years now), and according to my notes I typically run the car about 9 weekends per year plus test and practice days. According to this thread, I'm not your "typical 1.6 racer" because I bring the car out so often. I like to run the car competively, and have spent the money, time, and effort needed to do so. I find this thread interesting because I’m considering broadening my racing horizons beyond SM/SSM next season.

 

As somebody noted above, DC’s SSM class is a huge success. The competition is intense – I’d put the leaders in our class (Wible, Bates, Price, et al) up against the best that National, err, Majors SM has to offer. It’s not a class largely made up of hacks and people too cheap to run a major effort. Don’t believe me – go to the WDCR website and look at the results for yourselves. However, I do not think that success can be replicated on a national level because of the amount of control we as a region can maintain locally. Part of the reason I chose WDCR SSM (even though it’s a 240 mile/five hour tow each way) is because it came close to what I thought the original intent of SM  was supposed to be – you remember, those long gone from the GCR words about “a low cost entry level class.” I’m not here to debate that because that ship has long sailed. However, there must be something about that statement that still resonates – the turnout for WDCR SSM remains huge, with 30+ car fields even in the last few seasons of economic unrest being the norm, not the exception.

 

As I mentioned at the beginning, I’m considering racing elsewhere next year. Why? Not because of the lack of competition – WDCR SSM has that in spades. In fact, that’s the very thing I’m looking for in whatever class I end up in. A perfect storm of events at the end of the 2014 season (blowed up motor, some body damage) and a desire to competitively run some different tracks beyond the MARRS series have me considering what the best use of my racing funds are. Do I repair, or start fresh? As I said, that’s why I find this thread so interesting.

 

I could spend them by building my trusty old 1.6 again as a SM car, or build it as either a 1.6 or 1.8 ITA car, or even build it as some sort of STU thingy. I am even considering a NB SM build. (Note to Mike Collins and Chris Windsor, don’t waste the email, no, I’m not interested in SM5, but thanks.) Each of these options have their merits. However, I’ve already decided not to build the old car back up. Why don’t I build the 1.6? As I said, primarily because I want to competitively race at other tracks besides Summit – no knock against the track or the people who race there as they are all awesome. The reason? Because the damned car is 25 freakin’ years old! Parts for these things are no longer exactly falling out of the tress. It’s vintage eligible at this point – and don’t think the SVRA isn’t worried about a bunch of us showing up to play – and time and technology has marched on. From NA to NB to NC and so forth, technology has advanced. Technology is a key ingredient in racing folks, and you can’t stop it from advancing. Suspensions, materials, engine management, it all constantly evolves.

 

Once upon a time, way back in 2004, this was supposed to be an entry level class. But even then, nothing, and I mean NOTHING in the GCR guarantees competitiveness. The 1.6 isn’t that tool, and one can bitch about “parity” from now until the next blue moon, but it’s meaningless. This isn’t an entry level class any longer, and if you want to run and be competitive, you have to have the right tools. Otherwise, be honest with yourself and reconsider your racing goals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#42
Ron Alan

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To quote Mr. Dewhurst ^^^"someone who gets it!"


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#43
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Ok, so you have a goal in your mind of success.  What measurement do you suggest to use that will prove this belief?

car weight/pound foot, at rpm in 500 rpm increments from 3,500 rpm to 5,500 rpm, converted to pure pounds for the 1.6 and for the 99. Forgetting all the other varialbes for the moment.

Using my measurement for 1.6 success tells me that a simple/cheap change of lowering the 1.6 weight to 2,200 pounds would not work. The 99 would start taking it to the chin at 5,000 rpm and the 1.6 would continue to toat a larger load in pound below 5,000 rpm.  Because you like to argue/debate in high fashion, you using your measurement tell me how light a 1.6 could be before the 99 takes it on the chin. I gave you a head start, it's reducing the 1.6 weight by less than 100 pounds. The 1.6 races well above 5,500 rpm.


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#44
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To quote Mr. Dewhurst ^^^"someone who gets it!"

 

EDIT:

A bit or two from Jim Drago's post within this thread.

 

The 1.6 should fade away IMO.  IMHJ, never going to happen.

 

Another quote ^ from Mr. Dewhurst


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#45
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 Is that what it takes to make 1.6 drivers believe they are competitive, have some regional 1.6 guy beat Voytek in his 99?

 

When Voytek shows up and spanks all the 1.6 drivers, its not the car.  But its an easy to use scapegoat.....

Twister, put your selective reading capability in the closet, I said measuring stick.


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#46
James York

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car weight/pound foot, at rpm in 500 rpm increments from 3,500 rpm to 5,500 rpm, converted to pure pounds for the 1.6 and for the 99. Forgetting all the other varialbes for the moment.

Using my measurement for 1.6 success tells me that a simple/cheap change of lowering the 1.6 weight to 2,200 pounds would not work. The 99 would start taking it to the chin at 5,000 rpm and the 1.6 would continue to toat a larger load in pound below 5,000 rpm.  Because you like to argue/debate in high fashion, you using your measurement tell me how light a 1.6 could be before the 99 takes it on the chin. I gave you a head start, it's reducing the 1.6 weight by less than 100 pounds. The 1.6 races well above 5,500 rpm.

 

My comment wasn't directed to you.  I don't care what you think is a measurement of success for a 1.6, and I am not proposing, nor did I propose any measurement myself.  I was asking another poster.  (and I don't get your comment about "my measurement",....  talk about selective reading, you have a case of it and inserted your lbs/torque jumbo)

 

I can easily read back for your repeated broken record posts about torque below 5500 rpm.  I was interested in a fresh opinion.


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#47
James York

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Twister, put your selective reading capability in the closet, I said measuring stick.

 

Fine.  What does that measuring stick tell you then?  What margin "should be" his win victory.  How do you use this stick?


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#48
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My comment wasn't directed to you.  I don't care what you think is a measurement of success for a 1.6, and I am not proposing any measurement.  I was asking another poster.  (so I don't get your comment about "my measurement"....  talk about selective reading, you have a case of it.)
 
I can easily read back for your repeated broken record post about torque below 5500 rpm.


Sorry about that. Walter ask him the same question. Me and Walter drink the same water.


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Fine.  What does that measuring stick tell you then?  What margin "should be" his win victory.  How do you use this stick?


The same way you would use the measuring stick had you raced him. A car length on a 2 mile track and I would say you did damn fine job. 12 seconds on a 2 mile track and I'd say, not so good.
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#50
James York

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The same way you would use the measuring stick had you raced him. A car length on a 2 mile track and I would say you did damn fine job. 12 seconds on a 2 mile track and I'd say, not so good.

 

So you are saying, if I understand correctly, you would expect a 1.6 driven by a regional guy to be within a car length of Voytek in a 99 for it to be "fair" (car wise).....  Just trying to figure out how this stick can be used to compare.

 

How about when Voytek finishes BEHIND a 1.6?  How does that factor?


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#51
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So you are saying, if I understand correctly, you would expect a 1.6 driven by a regional guy to be within a car length of Voytek in a 99 for it to be "fair" (car wise).....  Just trying to figure out how this stick can be used to compare.

 

How about when Voytek finishes BEHIND a 1.6?  How does that factor?

 

Edited for your point one.

 

The same way you James York would use the measuring stick had you raced him. A car length on a 2 mile track and I would say you did damn fine job. 12 seconds on a 2 mile track and I'd say, not so good.

Your point two above, abnormality or Voytek didn't finish the race.


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#52
James York

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Edited for your point one.

Your point two above, abnormality or Voytek didn't finish the race.

 

Don't at all understand your points.. but forget it.  Not important anyway. 


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#53
Jim Drago

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Your point two above, abnormality or Voytek didn't finish the race.

Of course... what else could it be:) 


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#54
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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I'm just asking because I'm not sure but wouldn't changing the ring n pinion a simple easy fix ?

I see that a gear ratio of 4.875 is available and that should help the 1.6 where it needs it. I know this will take away from the top speed but how many tracks do the 1.6 top out and hit the rev limiter ( Daytona ? ) ? This would help us out of the corner when stuck in traffic and won't add any top end speed.

Remember just asking !
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#55
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Kuch, just FYI, *as far as I know*, the 4.44, 4.77, 4.875, etc., are only available as 1.8 gearsets.  4.30 is as short as you can go on a "stock" 1.6 gearset, *as far as I know*.

 

If I have it wrong, someone please correct me. 

 

Having driven the 4.77 to an ITS record a few months go, I can assure you it is a lovely gear for Mid O.  Perfect everywhere except an awkward shift between 10A/B and 11.


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#56
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Kuch, just FYI, *as far as I know*, the 4.44, 4.77, 4.875, etc., are only available as 1.8 gearsets. 4.30 is as short as you can go on a "stock" 1.6 gearset, *as far as I know*.

If I have it wrong, someone please correct me.

Having driven the 4.77 to an ITS record a few months go, I can assure you it is a lovely gear for Mid O. Perfect everywhere except an awkward shift between 10A/B and 11.


I have a torsion rear end so it would work,right ?

Do you think this could be a good fix for the lack of TQ in the 1.6s ?
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#57
Ron Alan

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I have a torsion rear end so it would work,right ?

Do you think this could be a good fix for the lack of TQ in the 1.6s ?

Yep...but not legal of course :(

 

Plus...if these are anything like a 4.3 ring and pinion from Mazda...like $500?


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Yep...but not legal of course :(
 
Plus...if these are anything like a 4.3 ring and pinion from Mazda...like $500?


So this could be a solution for the 1.6 easy and not that expensive in my book to get the car close in parity.
So what would have to be done is a torsion swap with a gear change. So for less then $2,000 ( $1400 for torsion swap and $500 for gears )the 1.6 could be back in the hunt.

Oh end get it legal ! :)
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So this could be a solution for the 1.6 easy and not that expensive in my book to get the car close in parity.
So what would have to be done is a torsion swap with a gear change. So for less then $2,000 ( $1400 for torsion swap and $500 for gears )the 1.6 could be back in the hunt.

Oh end get it legal ! :)

Do some math before saying, "back in the hunt".


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I have a torsion rear end so it would work,right ?

Do you think this could be a good fix for the lack of TQ in the 1.6s ?


A lower final drive is rarely as good as it first sounds. It might be a great fit at some tracks because the RPM is better at the exit of important corners, but it can also be the opposite so you have to exit in a higher gear than you do now, and so have no torque at all. Keep in mind that it just lowers every gear by a fixed percentage, which sounds good because that means a higher torque multiplier, but it also means that you up-shift at a lower MPH. Where you do exit in the same gear as the cars with a "real" torque advantage it seems to work, but now imagine the moment when you are forced to up-shift. The next higher gear means a big drop in multiplier for you, while the other car is still in the lower gear with their real torque advantage at a higher multiplier. So instead of beating you out of low RPM corners they just sit in your draft until you upshift, at which time the difference is huge so they pull out and blow by before they have to shift.

Of course the 1.8s are supposed to have a lower redline which offsets the problem somewhat. If the 1.6 ran about a 4.42 R&P it would give them 2.86% in torque at the wheels plus equalize shift points (in MPH). That might be somewhat better on average, but it isn't free because the extra 200 RPM is one of the few advantages they have right now and you give that up.

I need to check the ratio but I do have a 1.6 diff with a shorter R&P. I bought it for the LSD it came with, back when the supply first ran out.
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