160 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

Jim, I was summarizing the previosly stated premise of the problem I posted previously but you are right a summary in tge begining doesnt make much sense.

I was busting your chops

[Jamz14]

I was busting your chops

I know you were. Made me laugh.

[Jamz14]

I was busting your chops

But what about the idea?

[Jim Drago]

Thanks to guys at BSI.. Todds car is back together, dynoed and ready to race.
Hopefully we can repeat the results and the car is torn down again.
take 2 in a few days
Jim

[MDixon]

I keep reading about how sealed motors wont work, but what about semi-sealed?

In national karting events we used a wire seal that went thru a head bolt and a reed cage bolt to keep people out during the event. The head of the seal had a bar code that was scanned with an app on an iPhone and you can assign any data to it you want.

 

What if you used this method, lets say after head was teched and passed, after reinstalled the seal was put in place, scanned with the data of the Event, Tech Inspectors name and date assigned to it. Now, at anytime the competitor may cut the seal and do as he pleases but will be subject to a tear down next time in tech. If the seal is intact then they can scan it, see that they had it apart last month by John Doe and know its good. This could free up a lot of time and allow other items to be looked at and sealed.

 

Before anyone says someone can cut and reseal the seal, this seal we used completely unravels the minute it is cut. Becomes worthless.

The special nuts and bolts that will be needed for different parts can be made in bulk and sold in the tech shed to cover that cost.

 

Just a thought from a new to the class car owner. 

 

Flame away...

[Ron Alan]

Thanks Jim for the picture! These tools are what tech is laying on/inside the STR to check for material removal where the plunge cut ends and the casting begins. 

 

Thanks also for the clarification on the no-go tool and the relief cut. It is smart for the SCCA/NASA to make the tool slightly bigger(.002?) so any failure is truly a failure! Your insight on the chamber casting as the head is decked is great info!

 

Do you have a set of the no-go tools Jim? If so, can they be ordered as has been asked?

 

 

Denny...you are one dark and funny guy. Your subtle wit is impressive!

[Ron Alan]

I keep reading about how sealed motors wont work, but what about semi-sealed?

In national karting events we used a wire seal that went thru a head bolt and a reed cage bolt to keep people out during the event. The head of the seal had a bar code that was scanned with an app on an iPhone and you can assign any data to it you want.

 

What if you used this method, lets say after head was teched and passed, after reinstalled the seal was put in place, scanned with the data of the Event, Tech Inspectors name and date assigned to it. Now, at anytime the competitor may cut the seal and do as he pleases but will be subject to a tear down next time in tech. If the seal is intact then they can scan it, see that they had it apart last month by John Doe and know its good. This could free up a lot of time and allow other items to be looked at and sealed.

 

Before anyone says someone can cut and reseal the seal, this seal we used completely unravels the minute it is cut. Becomes worthless.

The special nuts and bolts that will be needed for different parts can be made in bulk and sold in the tech shed to cover that cost.

 

Just a thought from a new to the class car owner. 

 

Flame away...

First off, we dont have 1 cylinder motors! Inspecting a head for compliance(and re-installed)at an event requires real mechanics with the right tools. Not plausible. One source factory sealed as in other series is only option(IMO). Dyno/HP sealing...well, out west we know how well that works! Though for the most part most i'm sure are not cheating! 

[MDixon]

First off, we dont have 1 cylinder motors!

 

Well thanks for clearing that up for me. All you need is one bolt and nothing is coming off.

[Jim Drago]

Before anyone says someone can cut and reseal the seal, this seal we used completely unravels the minute it is cut. Becomes worthless.
The special nuts and bolts that will be needed for different parts can be made in bulk and sold in the tech shed to cover that cost.
 
Just a thought from a new to the class car owner. 
 
Flame away...

No flame, but if someone made the original seals.. someone can reproduce the seals. You can buy seals for the "sealed" classes now. You can defeat them as well, they have been defeated. Once Re-sealed you are all but home free.

The cars at Homestead were sealed after Saturday. You can buy what they use, take your head off, replace with a compliant one and reseal if that is the game you want to play. Cheaters will always have a way to cheat if that is the goal.

Jim

[MDixon]

I can understand all that Jim.

What I dont understand is the software and the scanning, you would think that when scanned it would show up with different data.

 

Just a thought, this process works quite well in the second most cheated form motorsports...

[LarryKing]

MDixon, Sealed engines/drivetrains work in Formula Mazda, Spec Racer Ford, MX5 Cup and I believe SM5.

 

I think the REAL reason seals won't work is because the leadership of SM doesn't want them to work. (How can a builder advertise the best motor if all motors make the same power?)

[Jim Drago]

MDixon, Sealed engines/drivetrains work in Formula Mazda, Spec Racer Ford, MX5 Cup and I believe SM5.

Please define "work"

[Ron Alan]

Well thanks for clearing that up for me. All you need is one bolt and nothing is coming off.

Haha...you said to flame? All in good fun Matt...at least you have ideas! I go with the old stand by and Jim blows me up!

 

 

 

 

 

 

MDixon, Sealed engines/drivetrains work in Formula Mazda, Spec Racer Ford, MX5 Cup and I believe SM5.

 

I think the REAL reason seals won't work is because the leadership of SM doesn't want them to work. (How can a builder advertise the best motor if all motors make the same power?)

Some in mX5 cup may disagree

 

The sad thing about "REAL" reasons is it can't be proved either way. The heart wants you to trust but your eyes and mind make you wonder??

[Danny Steyn]

Just in case anyone cares about the racing, here is the video from Sunday's race. Watch how just tiny errors relegate a driver from the front to several places back.

 

 

[Craig Berry]

I care Danny! Thanks again for the video and great entertainment, thumb and all! Much rather watch and talk about actual racing, than all the other

[suck fumes]

Man your car got HOT!! 239 deg and it still made power. Wow that's awesome.

[Jamz14]

I agree completely with Jim on this. Define work? A sealed program does not work to guarantee that you do not have cheated motors. It does not drive down costs.

 

If by working you mean that it gives naive people the perception that things are legit, then it works.

 

Also, are you suggesting sealed gearboxes, diffs, spindles, control arms, undercarriage braces and ECUs, ETC?

[LarryKing]

Would anyone care to guess the degree of tampering that occurs in SRF or MX5 Cup? Is it rampant?

 

Why have any rules if people will always cheat them?

 

How about a penalty for tampering that is harsh enough to make people think twice before attempting to cheat - like a two-year suspension from all competition.

 

(Sealed ECU would probably be a good start)

[syncspeedinc]

"I think the REAL reason seals won't work is because the leadership of SM doesn't want them to work. (How can a builder advertise the best motor if all motors make the same power?"

Bingo

[Steve Scheifler]

OK,so outline it, end-to-end from exactly what will be inspected on each model before the seal, who does it and where, tools & training required, how long it takes, everything. And then what, they also assemble it for you and slap the seal on it?

What happens when I need to open it up for minor maintenance? Will there be someone in every city and at every race to monitor me and re-seal, or am I just SOL and paying the freight?

Classes with sealed engines generally start that way and everyone has already bought into the program, whatever it involves. You can't just impose it on a class like SM.

But first, exactly what are you trying to solve with seals? Less cheating or less hassle with tech? Or...?