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2015 Homestead Majors - Updates and Race Results

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#81
High Chair

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We go to the track the first few times for the cars. We keep going back for years because of the people. It is people like Mike, Danny, Todd, Tom, Jim and Nick that make this class the success that it is. It is the same people who will keep it a success in the future. Mike will make everything right and Danny will continue to run up front.
 
Dave

 

Those of us reading this appreciate the gracious apologies from those involved, but I wouldn't beat yourselves up too badly.  These are miniscule non-performance enhancing and unintentional violations.  This might be a pain for a few more days but 2 weeks from now it isn't going to matter.

Thats exactly right!
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#82
Danica Davison

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I am not a front runner and I am not one of the guys that can afford to just put in another motor in the car. If my motor were to be found non-compliant, I may be out of racing for half of a year to pay for the new motor.  On one hand, I completely understand a person refusing to tear the car down because they don't want to put it back together/afford to/or have the time.  I get that. But on the other hand, I believe that even a mid pack guy picked at random should be held to the same standard as the guys up front with the money that can afford to fix it by next weekend.  I think random techs outside of the top three should be more common at bigger races and I personally would be completely fine with getting my car teched.  Would I want my car to come home in pieces? No, I wouldn't.  But I can't say I agree with tech getting more aggressive (which almost everybody seems to agree with) and then decline it when it comes to be my turn. I agree that it is definitely something that needs to be discussed. 

 

 

What also needs to be addressed is the failure to be torn down by random picks.

I support the drivers decision 100% to refuse being torn down. If you are doing this for fun and your decision is to finish outside top five and go home with your car in pieces or load up your car intact and take a DQ. I see many just taking a DQ, I certainly understand this position.

What do we want in this situation?


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#83
Tyler Kicera

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I feel bad for Todd and Danny. Rossini, my level of frustration was so high after the Runoffs, I can relate to your feelings. Please follow Danny's advice and go kick ass at Sebring!
I was afraid after the Runoffs this would happen.....that people, like myself, who honestly thought they were 100% legal would not be if they had to go through the same scrutiny we went through. Like I said months ago, I think very few are purposely cheating.....and I also do not think much of this changes the outcome, but how can we say it doesn't to those that are skeptical???...there is always doubt. As painful, and almost ridiculous as this is for a class that really pays no money, I guess this is what we need and want. At least at some point in the future it will be harder for those to blame the car for where they finish.

Mike you can get through this! I know this is stepping out there, but I will put money on Danny and Todd being at the front again this weekend! Shocking, I know!


Well said Craig! Looking forward to getting back to the track in 2015 ( RAT - first time ever ). Being a victim of my own success at the runoffs ( I guess :-/ ), I have honestly had zero interest in the rules conversation on this forum but the harsh reality is that we must all dot our I's and cross ourT's this year...there will be no room for folks to pull out the cheater card as in years past. Thank you to everyone who made this thing right...and I hope the thoroughness of tech continues.

Congrats to my friend Elivan. Way to represent the NE!

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#84
Ron Alan

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Those of us reading this appreciate the gracious apologies from those involved, but I wouldn't beat yourselves up too badly.  These are miniscule non-performance enhancing and unintentional violations.  This might be a pain for a few more days but 2 weeks from now it isn't going to matter.


Hmmm...? Non-compliance is non-compliance...there is no extra penalty for how much out of compliance. No extra penalty for intentional or unintentional. No extra penalty for non-performance or performance enhancing.

I guess all those "extras" are dealt with in the court of public opinion. And depending on who is penalized(friend or foe)will usually determine the reaction.

Interesting to go back in history and see what was said about drivers that had a run in with the "no-go tool"

From about this point in the thread forward there is discussion of the 2011 DQ at the Runoffs and Jim coming close in 2012. Some who are being generous to Danny here(which is fine btw)weren't quite so back then with others for the same thing.


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#85
High Chair

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What also needs to be addressed is the failure to be torn down by random picks.

I support the drivers decision 100% to refuse being torn down. If you are doing this for fun and your decision is to finish outside top five and go home with your car in pieces or load up your car intact and take a DQ. I see many just taking a DQ, I certainly understand this position.

What do we want in this situation?

Jim,

I have agreed with everything you have said on this thread except for this. If a driver shows up to a majors event they should know that there is a possibility that the car will be torn down. Beating 40 cars to finish on the podium is no more important than beating 10 car and finishing 30th. Every driver has the right to race around cars that are legal and the only way to do that is to tech a few people in the back. Should this happen at a regional race; probably not but this was not a regional. Also the driver in question is not some run of the mill driver who puts on old tires and comes to the track twice a year. He certainly had the ability and money to pull the head and should have done so after he whistled high. The driver/owner of that car is a good guy and I hang out with him at most races but there is only one reason that engine didn't come apart (in my opinion). If he did get written up for it then I would suspect he will be gone for  6 months as he should be. We always talk about the good of the class and at Homestead you/Todd and Rossini/Danny walked that walk as others may have to do at Sebring, VIR, etc. The car that refused the teardown at Homestead should have done the same if for no other reason than to help the class.


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#86
Tom Sager

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Hmmm...? Non-compliance is non-compliance...there is no extra penalty for how much out of compliance. No extra penalty for intentional or unintentional. No extra penalty for non-performance or performance enhancing.

I guess all those "extras" are dealt with in the court of public opinion. And depending on who is penalized(friend or foe)will usually determine the reaction.

 

I would say that penalties should be varied based on the nature of the non-compliance.  Finding a stroker crank, performance cams, fully ported head in a car should be dealt with differently than having 1 cut out of 16 on a head found to be ever so slightly out of spec.  Penalize both, but one deserves much different treatment than the other IMO. 


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#87
scott sanda

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I only have one question:

 

Were these teardowns and inspections CCC directed, or were they part of the pre planned tech plan, created before the CCC was in place?

 

Ok, 2 questions:

 

Who made the call on legality/illegality? Tech, or the CCC?

 

Thanks,

 

Scott



#88
Jim Drago

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Jim,
I have agreed with everything you have said on this thread except for this. If a driver shows up to a majors event they should know that there is a possibility that the car will be torn down. Beating 40 cars to finish on the podium is no more important than beating 10 car and finishing 30th. Every driver has the right to race around cars that are legal and the only way to do that is to tech a few people in the back. Should this happen at a regional race; probably not but this was not a regional. Also the driver in question is not some run of the mill driver who puts on old tires and comes to the track twice a year. He certainly had the ability and money to pull the head and should have done so after he whistled high. The driver/owner of that car is a good guy and I hang out with him at most races but there is only one reason that engine didn't come apart (in my opinion). If he did get written up for it then I would suspect he will be gone for  6 months as he should be. We always talk about the good of the class and at Homestead you/Todd and Rossini/Danny walked that walk as others may have to do at Sebring, VIR, etc. The car that refused the teardown at Homestead should have done the same if for no other reason than to help the class.


I probably mis typed a little bit there. I support the drivers right not to take the car apart. But that decision has to come with harsh penalties. I always thought that it was an automatic 6 month suspension? But I don't think that is what happened? IMO, refusal to present parts to tech should be handled this way,automatic 6 months. While it may suck for the little guy, I can assure you that if there was anyone at the majors that didn't have the ability to pull a head. Myself, Jeff, Rossini or 5 other guys would do it for them.
Knowing the way this is going to be going forward, I would suggest if not willing to at least pay to have your head re installed, perhaps you may need to think twice about racing in the majors series?

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#89
Jamz14

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Maybe simplifying the two points and presenting it as a problem will help everyone come up with a solution.

 

1. Everybody seems to agree that strong tech is needed to give everyone up and down the grid the warm fussies that all is well

2. No body wants to impact the little guy that doesn't have the resources or maybe the technical ability to conduct tear downs after events. You also have to remove plausible excuses that give the competitor a valid point in refusing teardown.

 

In looking at the above, I see this distilling down to; how do you conduct an invasive tech on a car without impacting the guy that can't do it from a tecinical and financial perspective thereby not risking them not showing up to events?

 

Come on you guys!!! You can creatively find ways to exploit the lack of concentricity language in the plunge cuts but you can't figure out this one??!!!


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#90
Ron Alan

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I would say that penalties should be varied based on the nature of the non-compliance.  Finding a stroker crank, performance cams, fully ported head in a car should be dealt with differently than having 1 cut out of 16 on a head found to be ever so slightly out of spec.  Penalize both, but one deserves much different treatment than the other IMO. 

For sure I dont disagree! BUT...we dont have that...or do we? More so, i was just pointing out that the court of public opinion can be very fickle!

 

In politics, when our guy/party is running the country, we give them a pass for the same things we scream "impeachment" at towards the other guys :)

 

From memory(correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Gorilla get a DQ for failing the no-go tool(his other antics got him banned)? But like the runoffs, Todd and Danny were moved to the back for the non-compliance. Maybe this was covered after the runoffs but can someone explain again? Kyle Kaiser was DQ for non-compliance at the same event.  


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#91
Steve Scheifler

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I believe that what Tom describes is how the club as handled it historically in all classes.
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#92
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From page 70 of the 2015 GCR

 

Refusing to allow teardown in
Mechanical Protest,Request for
Action, or Chief Steward’s Action
 
Event disqualification, 6 month
suspension of competition privileges,
$250 fine, and 6 penalty points
 
My assumption is that the CCC has the same powers as the Chief Steward and thus the same penalty would apply.
 
that being said, from my understanding, and I may be 100% wrong, was found to be over on compression ratio when tested with the whistler. He was given the option of having the engine tested by "cc-ing" the head. He declined this offer to prove himself compliant. Thus he accepted the whistler test results and was penalized. IMHO this was not a refusal of tear down, just a choice to accept the first test (whistler) results. This should not result in any additional penalties beyond the initial loose of position.
 
from page 69 of the 2015 GCR
 
7.4. PENALTY POINTS
A. Penalties assessed by the SOM or the Court of Appeals accumulate
points according to the following schedule:
1. Fine ($1 - $99) no points
2. Reprimand 1 point
3. Fine ($100 - $249) 1 point
4. Loss of event points 1 point
5. Fine ($250) 2 points
6. Loss of time, lap, or finishing position 2 points
7. Probation of SCCA competition privileges 3 points
8. Disqualification 4 points
9. Suspension of SCCA competition privileges 6 points
10. Loss of accrued championship or series points 7 points
 
Being moved to last is a softer penalty than being disqualified.
 
This is taken from the Central Division website: 2013 Penalty Guidlines
 
Car not in Compliance (GCR 9.1)
Car Compliance Situations
a. Prior to the Race: If found after qualifying, loss of Qualifying times
b. Post-Race: A non-compliant car shall be moved behind compliant cars and may lose
 points.
2. Car not in Compliance (GCR 9.1 and 2.1.3) (deliberate, substantial, non-compliance)
a. Disqualification, Suspension, and Probation
 
All this, seems to leave the penalty given, at the discreation of the Chief Steward. Right or wrong, good or bad, the Chief Steward has the power.
 
Dave

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#93
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that being said, from my understanding, and I may be 100% wrong, was found to be over on compression ratio when tested with the whistler. He was given the option of having the engine tested by "cc-ing" the head. He declined this offer to prove himself compliant. Thus he accepted the whistler test results and was penalized. IMHO this was not a refusal of tear down, just a choice to accept the first test (whistler) results. This should not result in any additional penalties beyond the initial loose of position.


Like Dave, I have no idea what actually transpired. But if the above is correct. I agree 100% with Dave. There was no need to pull apart if the competitor accepted the first measurement as accurate.

However, if tech decided after seeing this compression number they wanted to look further and refused.. I think that would and should be a 6 month suspension.

( this is just a hypothetical, not saying this is what happened)

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#94
Jamz14

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So great, you guys have now concluded that there is no problem with this particular case but haven't solved the issues for when there is a problem with a competitor refusing tear down. Not because they are non complaint, but because they don't want to because it isn't why they race or are unable to.

 

What now? Instead of tearing apart the specific cases, why don't we look at it from the general perspective and see if you can solve it? Then the specific cases won't matter much any longer.

 

Solve the problem of needing much invasive tech, but many can't or won't do it.


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#95
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Jamz, you're chomping at the bit. I'm a mid pack guy who doesn't want to do a tear down. What's your solution?


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#96
Jim Drago

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So great, you guys have now concluded that there is no problem with this particular case but haven't solved the issues for when there is a problem with a competitor refusing tear down. Not because they are non complaint, but because they don't want to because it isn't why they race or are unable to.
.


I dont either of us concluded anything other than we were not there and don't know the facts?

I think the rule that Dave spelled out is fair and should be enforced. The penalty is applied by the chief steward.

Event disqualification, 6 month
suspension of competition privileges,
$250 fine, and 6 penalty points


The Chief steward can use discretion here. It sounds like you want a mandatory enforcement?

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#97
TommyB

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This sounds awfully punitive for the randomly selected guy who finishes 20th and  who may not have the mechanical and/or financial wherewithal to comply.

 

Is the only alternative really to just "don't compete in majors".

 

What's wrong with a simple DQ ?  Still sends a strong message and doesn't discourage or temporarily negate future participation.

 

..and yes mandatory enforcement. Eliminates any discretion and thus the political side. I've seen this first hand in PCA racing and its deplorable.



#98
davew

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The problem in my opinion lies in having a repeatable set of rules for everyone. Finishing 20th in a 40 car field is one thing. What about finishing 5th in a 10 car field? Still in the 50% finishing position, but a whole lot different. Unfortunately some people are going to get caught in the net, that don't intend to be. But by signing the entry form, you agree to abide by the rules. And these rules are pretty clearly written.

 

When the offset bushing rule came out, I stated my opinions. I said the rule was rushed through and not completely thought out. The same can apply to the CCC program. Sit back and remember what you wished for; strict tech enforcement. Then think about the unintended consequences; guys without the desire to be torn down. You can not have strict enforcement without 100% compliance to the procedures.

 

When we get to Blackhawk, and I have 15 of a 30 car field, the odds are pretty good it will be one of my midpackers being torn down. Unless the rule changes, I will advise them to take it apart or face the consequences as written in the GCR.

 

If someone comes up with a good option, I reserve the right to change my opinion. But based on the current rule, everyone must tear down if requested. Or take the big penalty. The only alternative is to read the rules, understand the rules and abide by the rules.

 

Dave


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#99
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Why should anyone be exempt from teardown, front, mid or back of the pack?

I would venture to guess there are a lot of illegal cars in the back as well!

rules are rules!



#100
Jamz14

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Jamz, you're chomping at the bit. I'm a mid pack guy who doesn't want to do a tear down. What's your solution?

 

Ok, to summarize; we need invasive tech to give everyone comfort that we are all competing on a level playing field. We also need to make this doable for the guys without the ability or finances. I see the former as a situation with no solution, no way around us needing tech. Therefore we have to work on the latter; provide tech to guys without the means to do so or even the desire to do so. Just as a side note before going into a possible solution. I saw Charlie Hayes pull the gearbox out of the car in about 45 min. and then go on to pull the head with just as much speed. How many of a 40 deep field can do that?  How many want to do that?

 

The solution I think is to provide a way for a guys car to get stripped down by someone other than himself while he goes and has a beer after the event with all of his friends. Further the car needs to be put back together for him as well so he can load up his car afterwards and go home without having to spend additional money to get it back together for the race. What type of person does this kind of work??? A mechanic!!!! So the next step is how to pay a mechanic to perform this work.

 

First, not all people will want a mechanic regardless even if that mechanic is a trusted East St , OPM, Tiley, Rush ETC mechanic. Danny will always have the track side support to have OPM do all of his tech work. So no matter if there is a paid mechanic there qualified to do it, Danny will not take advantage of that and he will have his builder tear down and reassemble. Me, I can afford a mechanic or a pro shop to do my tear down, but I have extreme trust issues so I would never have either a 3rd party mechanic, or a major shop mechanic do my work. So I will never take advantage of the on call mechanic either and do my own work.

 

This mechanic will be able to go as deep as anyone wants. If consistently fewer cars are taken deeper than they are today, we can reduce the number of cars being torn down at any particular event. For example, if at every big regional with over 10 cars, one or two cars are asked to go deep in tech, and what is teched is changed every event, we dont have to do 10 cars at only huge events. You have to do so many cars right now at the huge events because these cars aren't checked for anything at 99% of the other events. This is a long game program. But if you knew that some sort of really invasive tech was going to be done at most well attended regionals, and you only check one or two cars, eventually you get around to having a look inside most cars for most things. This alone puts the brakes on a lot of the things we are seeing right now. It also gives the class time to make adjustments before the entire top 10 are DQed for the same thing.

 

So back to how do we fund this?

 

At multiple regional events with NASA and at the championships there was a dyno on track to help with identifiying outliers. At the nationals, Drennan's car was on the dyno I believe no less than 3 times. Might have been no less than two. At least 4 or 5 other guys also had multiple trips to the dyno. There was also a whole slew of tech personnel on hand. That dyno cost. I would imagine the dyno cost was north of $1000 to have it available. However it is diced up, there is money currently involved with even the level of tech we are doing now. So what I am asking is, can we have a qualified mechanic on call at appropriate events that would accept a couple of hundred dollars to tear down one or two cars to any level the stewards decide for a singular thing? Would a mechanic take the job if he captured that couple of hundred dollars per event, but only had to do the work a percentage of the time ( considering the Danny and James affect where we wouldn't take advantage of this mechanic but he still gets paid)?

 

The SCCA is talking about something similar to this suggestion with their roving tech team idea.The only difference is that I would have this roving tech team equipped to conduct the tear down and inspection.......... on fewer cars per event. Consistency is the secret here. Consistency allows you to look at fewer cars more often. Anyway, SCCA obviously has some sort of financial model they are considering for this roving tech team. So we are looking at the delta on how there are planning to pay this team to inspect to one man actually performing the tear down. I think that for about $250 we could find a qualified person to do the necessary mechanical work to conduct just about any tech request. I feel this way because I have asked a few. And when you consider that not every tech session would require the gearbox or engine stripped all the way down, and that they wouldn't have to actually do the work for some percentage of the weekends, I have found a few different mechanics willing to handle that contract. At some events maybe it is the intake manifold or the exhaust manifold and doesn't require the engine or box to be pulled. So with these assumptions, I think we can figure out a way to fund an on call mechanic program to allow the guys to come and compete without worry that they are coming home with an incomplete car and a sunday afternoon filled with work that they are not interested in doing.

 

Now of course there is going to be a million reasons why this idea won't fly. But glorious is the man that can find a single way for it to work!! All I know is that there is some really really smart people here and in racing in general. When we look at the problem simply, I am confident that there is a solution if we put our minds to it. Lets figure out a way for racing to be fun again and not put off people that really don't feel like paying a lot of money to not have fun on the weekend.

 

So there it is. Rip it up, toss it out or whatever. As I said before, no one touches my car so I am saddled with doing the tear down anyway. So if we never figure it out,,,,, so much the better for me when people are DQed and or suspended. Less competition and I have the same amount of fun anyways. I don't need there to be 40 cars on track to have fun. I have fun even when I am the only car on track. I just like to drive. I'd prefer to be driving with you guys, but if the class loses car counts to the point where there isn't any competition, I'll pay even less money to drive and go to track days or HPDE events and still be smiling.

 

Ron, I am okay with your response to this idea taking a few weeks. I know I have written more words on this post than you can handle in a week. :) Take a couple of weeks to get through it all.  That said though, you have written more in the last few months than you have in the few years I have been on this forum so maybe I am having an influence on you. All kidding aside...... I know you have had a big influence on me and for that I am thankful. Hope to see you soon.


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