171 replies to this topic

[zoomzoom22]

Foreshadowing? or already announced?

You guys don't ever read anything.

 

While Laguna was described as a 1 time west deal/west coast was worthy/due/been coming really far for years (insert appropriate belief) - earlier this year, the BOD reaffirmed (was the word I think used in the fastrack) that the runoffs would be going west 1 of every 3 years.  Further they indicated that the location for 2017 would be announced at X time or event (I can't remember) but I think it was this years runoffs.  However 2017 has not yet been announced, but it is a strong belief it is going west again.  Couple rumors on what tracks the deal could be for also

 

Since you may not have caught this either, the $1,000 entry fee for Laguna isn't going away.  We got the explanation for that, however at the same time they did not announce that the tow fee was going away, they waited until just last month to tell us that, with plenty of space away from the $1,000 entry fee that isn't going away news.  This was to lower the cost to us competitors as described.  I am not sure I understand that at all.

 

On a separate note, has anyone noticed that the majors are expensive as hell and the track time has gone way down hill and the schedules are not consistent nor are the group pairings?  All things we were told would be done better/well.  Go look at the NOLA schedule, only a 2 day event and single 20 minute qualifying session Saturday morning, race Saturday afternoon (30 mins) and then race Sunday (40 minutes) for a whopping 1 hour and 30 minutes for what I assume will be the same park park $600 entry fee.  Gone are the days of nationals with 3 hours of track time and cheaper prices.  Kudos to Homestead - at least they gave away checker flags with the Homestead name on them.

[suck fumes]

NASA is $310 for 2 practice, 2 qual, and 3-4 races depending on class. Just sayin....

[Steve Scheifler]

To those repeating the old song about "put up or shut up" or the like, no matter how much $$ you have it helps to know exactly what you are protesting. You can't just say "tear it apart and look for stuff". And if it's the ECU, then what?

If someone thinks it's a piggyback then by all means write it up, but I've heard that builder is using ECUs. I doubt he's the only one, so are the others concerned that his are better or that he's doing something else that they aren't? It's almost funny.

[Jim Drago]

To those repeating the old song about "put up or shut up" or the like, no matter how much $$ you have it helps to know exactly what you are protesting. You can't just say "tear it apart and look for stuff". And if it's the ECU, then what?

If someone thinks it's a piggyback then by all means write it up, but I've heard that builder is using ECUs. I doubt he's the only one, so are the others concerned that his are better or that he's doing something else that they aren't? It's almost funny

 

 

The ecus can be tested if that is what you want, just plan ahead.  Have a dyno at track, have a spare compliant computer, key and theft module. CCC does not have to PROVE anything. Pretty easy as Rossini has a portable dyno and compliant computer,key and theft module can be had for 200/250

[Steve Scheifler]

Ah, so if a swap shows a significant decrease in power then the CCC can rule non-compliant? Then he had better get those parts directly from Mazda, certified as being unmodified and as-delivered on US cars blah, blah, blah and keep it in his locked compliance tool chest. Otherwise I'll supply him with one that will get ALL VVTs bounced.

Does this fall under the rule about comparing to factory parts, because it is not obvious that he could do such a test.

[Jim Drago]

Ah, so if a swap shows a significant decrease in power then the CCC can rule non-compliant? Then he had better get those parts directly from Mazda, certified as being unmodified and as-delivered on US cars blah, blah, blah and keep it in his locked compliance tool chest. Otherwise I'll supply him with one that will get ALL VVTs bounced.

Does this fall under the rule about comparing to factory parts, because it is not obvious that he could do such a test.

 

Lots more leeway with the CCC deal.  I am sure Mazda would be willing to supply the parts if there is any doubt. If thought out, spelled out, there are no boundaries.  It can be good, but can be bad. Just like the judicial system.. some murderers walk scott free on technicalities and innocent people have been executed.

[Sean - MiataCage]

SCCA can barely field "technical" tech personnel at the track, let alone get a dyno to the track.  I wish they could.  Even if they could you still have the issues of the hidden switch and/or revert to stock for a period of time based key cycle shenanigans going on.  As much as I hate to say this.........  If it can not be teched then we need to consider opening it up so everyone can take advantage of it and not just those who choose to ignore the rule.  I don't really want to see this option, but I also am not dumb enough to think that no one is running one and we are not competing against them today.

 

As I have stated before I don't believe we are going to get anywhere significant quickly until we put some very harsh penalties in place for blatant cheats like the computer.  Put a mandatory year long suspension in place and work on finding ways to tech it in the process and just maybe the risk will not be worth the reward for those doing it and if someone does it and gets caught then they can sit out for a year.

 

How about stand alone data units in cars.   Have SCCA pick up some AIM Solo's or even SOLO DL's for that matter that hook to the ECU through the OBDII port. I think that would show rev limiters increased, fuel pressure and acceleration rates.

 

Roger Caddell.... Your on here from time to time.  Can you confirm that with an 01-05 VVT car that plugging into the OBDII port would give us rev limiter data and enough data to look at acceleration rates or other useful items to help with illegal computers?

 

If it can, then problem solved.   Have SCCA buy 10 of them and take them to Major events and randomly plug them into cars for qualifying and/or race sessions.  I am sure Roger or somebody at AIM would accept SCCA's money to write a report that would automatically show a tech inspector what they need to see.  No need to do anything but print and read the print out.

 

Sean

[Steve Scheifler]

Acceleration data is not something you can DQ on. Ours is so low that a draft or brief head wind has more impact than any cheat. Even with video to identify a draft situation there are too many other variables.

Not sure what else can be monitored on those through the OBDII plug but mazda may be able to access things most scan tools can't.

[James York]

Lots more leeway with the CCC deal.  I am sure Mazda would be willing to supply the parts if there is any doubt. If thought out, spelled out, there are no boundaries.  It can be good, but can be bad. Just like the judicial system.. some murderers walk scott free on technicalities and innocent people have been executed.

 

I had a work associate who's philosophy was a few innocents might get fried to make sure all the baddies were put away.  When he told that to the judge at jury selection, it didn't go over well.

 

This guy also lived on the edge of sexual harassment too, so I am not sure his judgement was 100%.

[pat slattery]

I watched Dannys race, dont see anything but Danny and the other car run away from everyone else and finish nose to tail.  What difd I miss

[Bad Rusty]

I don't remember any posts like that, certainly not from those protested.  
 
To put any rumors to bed on 'my" feelings, now that I am just a 'member"..
I have no problem with the protest or protesters. Both are very good guys and live their lives in a way most would aspire to do from all that I hear. However, I don't believe this protest was solely for the good of the class, there were personal motives of increasing finishing positions as well or the protest would have come at the regional a few weeks before. IMO, there was no way the two drivers that protested were beating any of the drivers that they protested on that day, at that track.  That is not an insult, just my opinion. I wasn't beating Drennan either.
 
The Runoffs are in Daytona this year and Mid Ohio next, I hope they decide to come out.  I have the same confidence level in at these two events. Hopefully they will come out, if they feel they were at a disadvantage, we will all race truly heads up and let the chips fall where they may.  Otherwise, if I can still drive at 50 years old, we will be out west in 17 as well.  Who knows, we may show up at NASA Laguna this year.

You're right , no one was beating Drennan!!!( I was the last to beat him, but I also accidentally dislocated his finger in Fontana) Hi Mark!!!

I wish his bullder would have made his car 100% legal, he could have won without the BS.

[Ken SM94]

However, I don't believe this protest was solely for the good of the class, there were personal motives of increasing finishing positions as well or the protest would have come at the regional a few weeks before. 

 

Wow Jim, you are so off base here. You knew we had an issue with the str and knew we were likely to do something about it.  You said "tech has seen what you were doing the last two years at the Runnoffs, and it's legal", and then later, after checking your heads yourself, "I'm so mad at my guys, I'm going to check/fix all my cars".  You obviously didn't, gambled and lost.  It was not personal.  Everything we did was an effort to not single anyone out, even at the risk of loosing a hell of a lot of money.  Our original plan was to protest the top 3 cars, but that's not allowed because you have to name the cars before the race.  So then the plan was to protest the top 10 in qualifying and pull the protest on all but the top 3 after the race.  After getting some donations from others in the pits we decided to let the all the protests stand and we would see which engine builders were legal and who was torturing the rules. It was not personal. I'm not stupid enough to believe that the str made the difference for us.  The str is just one of MANY things that are being manipulated.  Like you have said before, you "touch" every part on your car.  That's great and would applaud good car prep.  But if it doesn't say you CAN do it in the rules or in the shop manual, you CAN'T do it (not talking about you specifically here).

 

We had worked very hard on our engine program all year and felt like (based on what we saw at the Majors on our end of the country) that we were in pretty good shape. There was nobody at the Regional from our end of the country that I/ we haven't beat plenty of times before.  But a bunch of guys show up to the Regional with new engines (guys we were running with or beating all year), and all of the sudden they had "talent" and we're struggling in the top 10.  After the Regional we knew we had to live with what we thought were cheater engines or come up with a plan.  

 

We came to the runoffs with about 5 different protest options that I believe would have netted about the same results.  In the end we went with the str.  We considered going for all of them but that would have looked like a witch hunt.  What are you supposed to do when you think people are cheating?  I guess we'll go after them one at a time.  People seem to like that better.

 

I am a fan of beautiful, clean well prepped cars.  But I feel some cars are "prepped" beyond the rules.  This wasn't my first protest and won't be my last, I'm sure.  I certainly don't enjoy it but when you get vilified by the people found to be cheating it makes it a bit easier.

 

And by the way, all the other rule tweaks you see this year aren't coincidence.  Rem polish being called out, a radius on the plunge spec'd, the plunge being aligned on the valve guide, etc, were part of what they saw as a result of our protest.  There was much more going on than just the simple "deburr" on the str.

[Ron Alan]

I don't remember any posts like that, certainly not from those protested.

To put any rumors to bed on 'my" feelings, now that I am just a 'member"..
I have no problem with the protest or protesters. Both are very good guys and live their lives in a way most would aspire to do from all that I hear. However, I don't believe this protest was solely for the good of the class, there were personal motives of increasing finishing positions as well or the protest would have come at the regional a few weeks before. IMO, there was no way the two drivers that protested were beating any of the drivers that they protested on that day, at that track. That is not an insult, just my opinion. I wasn't beating Drennan either.

The Runoffs are in Daytona this year and Mid Ohio next, I hope they decide to come out. I have the same confidence level in at these two events. Hopefully they will come out, if they feel they were at a disadvantage, we will all race truly heads up and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise, if I can still drive at 50 years old, we will be out west in 17 as well. Who knows, we may show up at NASA Laguna this year.

I'm pretty sure the first half dozen pages or so(2014 Runoffs)after the protest was announced...things weren't so nice here for Will. That said, I'm sure my memory is mixing at track and of this site things that happened.
For the record...I know what you said to Will at the event and what you said to me(exactly what you said here). You also new the protest was coming and felt you were good. My comment really was just to point out that things are often easier said than done....and when done nothing is guaranteed!

Are all you drivers over 50 going to take this??

Now I understand our conversation today! Was loud in the restaurant and I missed your point!

[FTodaro]

you still have the issues of the hidden switch and/or revert to stock for a period of time based key cycle shenanigans going on.  As much as I hate to say this.........  If it can not be teched then we need to consider opening it up so everyone can take advantage of it and not just those who choose to ignore the rule.

Sean

Sean and Steve, on the issue of hidden switch ECU, I wonder if we could capture that data in black box type device, reference Steve's post below, maybe it can be done, not tracking the typical G forces but tracking the computer mapping and recording it in a black box recorder.

In Air crashes the black box records all sorts of data, i would think this is possible we just need someone smart enough to figure out how.

Sean, you know how popular it is to move the rules to cover up cheats. You would have come up with some proof its happening first. I am not saying its not, but it would have to be some tangible proof. IMO.

[Jamz14]

Ken,

 

I want you to know that not everyone vilifies you guys for what you did. I know what a compliant car is because I have read the rules so many times over. I know what a compliant car will do because I have one (at least from and engine and power perspective) and know others that feel as you do about the rules. Did some innocent people get captured with it, maybe, probably. But I have said many times before, the real damage that cheats do is the time and opportunity it takes away from guys that do this for more than fun. For young people that dream of making a career out of it. Were cheaters the difference in my kid being number 1? Probably not. But they have been the difference between him being number 2 or 3. If they didn't impact him from being number one what is the issue right? Wrong. What people don't know is the confidence hit he took. That he was so frustrated for not placing in 3 years that he almost wanted to give up. That all changed once we had managed to get on the podium the first time. But as a dad and a coach, we have to manage our kids so much. Little things become big things.

 

I for one am glad you guys did what you did. I am sorry for the fall out on those that don't deserve it but I am equally sorry for the impact that people that push the rules beyond the limit have had on those that feel constrained by them.

[Sean - MiataCage]

Sean and Steve, on the issue of hidden switch ECU, I wonder if we could capture that data in black box type device, reference Steve's post below, maybe it can be done, not tracking the typical G forces but tracking the computer mapping and recording it in a black box recorder.

In Air crashes the black box records all sorts of data, i would think this is possible we just need someone smart enough to figure out how.

Sean, you know how popular it is to move the rules to cover up cheats. You would have come up with some proof its happening first. I am not saying its not, but it would have to be some tangible proof. IMO.H

Hi Frank.  I agree it will be a tall order.  I believe SCCA is already on board with the fact that there are cheater ECU's out there so if we can get some data out of the OBDII port I think we can do exactly what you are talking about.  I agree finding one of these switches will be next to impossible, however I'm not sure we have to prove the switch, only that we want to make sure the computers are legit.

 

Roger is the guy to tell us what can be done.... I have a call into him.

 

Thanks.... Sean

[Jim Drago]

Wow Jim, you are so off base here. You knew we had an issue with the str and knew we were likely to do something about it.  You said "tech has seen what you were doing the last two years at the Runoffs, and it's legal", and then later, after checking your heads yourself, "I'm so mad at my guys, I'm going to check/fix all my cars".  You obviously didn't, gambled and lost.  It was not personal.  Everything we did was an effort to not single anyone out, even at the risk of loosing a hell of a lot of money.  Our original plan was to protest the top 3 cars, but that's not allowed because you have to name the cars before the race.  So then the plan was to protest the top 10 in qualifying and pull the protest on all but the top 3 after the race.  After getting some donations from others in the pits we decided to let the all the protests stand and we would see which engine builders were legal and who was torturing the rules. It was not personal. I'm not stupid enough to believe that the str made the difference for us.  The str is just one of MANY things that are being manipulated.  Like you have said before, you "touch" every part on your car.  That's great and would applaud good car prep.  But if it doesn't say you CAN do it in the rules or in the shop manual, you CAN'T do it (not talking about you specifically here).

Mostly accurate here, but I don't think "we" spoke about this ever, stuff was translated through Sean, and as I told you I think some was lost in translation. It doesn't excuse anything, nor am I making any excuse. I did not think this was personal then, I do not think it is personal now, nor am I upset by the protest. I did think what were doing was compliant, so I did feel we were OK. What I did say above ... Is that this protest was also partly to improve "your" chances at the runoffs. I could be way off base, but that is my opinion. If you say I am wrong, I have no reason not to take you at your word.
 

We came to the runoffs with about 5 different protest options that I believe would have netted about the same results.  In the end we went with the str.  We considered going for all of them but that would have looked like a witch hunt.  What are you supposed to do when you think people are cheating?  I guess we'll go after them one at a time.  People seem to like that better.
 
I am a fan of beautiful, clean well prepped cars.  But I feel some cars are "prepped" beyond the rules.  This wasn't my first protest and won't be my last, I'm sure.  I certainly don't enjoy it but when you get vilified by the people found to be cheating it makes it a bit easier.

I just want to be clear, I don't think anything you did was 'wrong" nor do I feel I vilified anyone?  I only suggested if the goal had nothing to do with finishing position at the Runoffs, you could have accomplished the same thing two weeks earlier and we could have all raced heads up the way you guys wanted. I realize we could have addressed it beforehand as well, thought we had. I realize the situation you guys were put in was not a good one and hindsight is always 20/20. I also realize our cars and compliance was not and should not be your responsibility. 

 

And by the way, all the other rule tweaks you see this year aren't coincidence.  Rem polish being called out, a radius on the plunge spec'd, the plunge being aligned on the valve guide, etc, were part of what they saw as a result of our protest.  There was much more going on than just the simple "deburr" on the str.

Who exactly do you think put these rules in?
I alone made sure the REM rule was put in place. I am also the one who called out the spindles as the next PR nightmare of the class.

Lastly, as I said to you in a private email. You are welcome to inspect my engine at anytime, sealed after any race. I will ship to you at my expense, you can inspect and send back within a week. If a similar situation is to come up with you or anyone else, you can inspect my car at the track with no bond( within in reason and time constraints) I certainly have no issue with a protest either, nor do I find it personal. We absolutely will continue to touch every part, that is what we should do, but within the rules. My intention is not, nor was it ever to win, prep or race outside the rules, nor will it ever be in the future. 

The Runoffs are at Daytona and then Mid Ohio, hopefully you and Will can make It. While I agree you  were 100% correct in your protest, I also believe it changed nothing in the results, we agree here. But none the less, I would not want to be on the wrong side of the equation as you were. So hopefully we can all race again truly heads up and let the chips lie, that's what we all do this for in the first place.

[Strongbad]

Fun weekend at Sebring Majors! My first time there and had a blast learning the track and racing with some of the best in the country. From my perspective on the grid the larger parity problem is drivers. I was fortunate enough to compare my data with Danny and found out where I was loosing time and it was not from my motor. That being said, I support the invasive tech as I feel it is keeping the cars closer and making the racing better for all. My biggest disappointment of the weekend, however, was running behind a certain group of cars and smelling someone’s ‘special fuel’. Watering eyes and massive headache afterwards. Smelled it both daze! Please come to Atlanta Majors with that nonsense as there will be a special ‘pee’ cup waiting for your sample. Promise.

 

Big thanks to Tom and the OPM crew as always. Car ran perfectly all weekend. Thanks to Danny for helping me get up to speed and to Skip for working together on the track.

Also, shout out to the Autotechnik guys and to Mark Gibbons for hosting the SM meeting (beer & pizza) and Todd Lamb for the killa grill out Sat night. Hope to see everyone in Atlanta.

 

Peace

[Jamz14]

Mostly accurate here, but I don't think "we" spoke about this ever, stuff was translated through Sean, and as I told you I think some was lost in translation. It doesn't excuse anything, nor am I making any excuse. I did not think this was personal then, I do not think it is personal now, nor am I upset by the protest. I did think what were doing was compliant, so I did feel we were OK. What I did say above ... Is that this protest was also partly to improve "your" chances at the runoffs. I could be way off base, but that is my opinion. If you say I am wrong, I have no reason not to take you at your word.
 

I just want to be clear, I don't think anything you did was 'wrong" nor do I feel I vilified anyone?  I only suggested if the goal had nothing to do with finishing position at the Runoffs, you could have accomplished the same thing two weeks earlier and we could have all raced heads up the way you guys wanted. I realize we could have addressed it beforehand as well, thought we had. I realize the situation you guys were put in was not a good one and hindsight is always 20/20. I also realize our cars and compliance was not and should not be your responsibility. 

 

Who exactly do you think put these rules in?
I alone made sure the REM rule was put in place. I am also the one who called out the spindles as the next PR nightmare of the class.

Lastly, as I said to you in a private email. You are welcome to inspect my engine at anytime, sealed after any race. I will ship to you at my expense, you can inspect and send back within a week. If a similar situation is to come up with you or anyone else, you can inspect my car at the track with no bond( within in reason and time constraints) I certainly have no issue with a protest either, nor do I find it personal. We absolutely will continue to touch every part, that is what we should do, but within the rules. My intention is not, nor was it ever to win, prep or race outside the rules, nor will it ever be in the future. 
e first place.

 

This is a stand up offer by Jim and I respect this. Maybe it is more of this that we need instead of rules and regulations. More willingness to offer up our cars for visual inspection by fellow competitors. If the general culture changed, I too would change from my past position that if the rules allow my hood down, my hood is staying down. Maybe instead of having to pay for a mechanic to tear down the cars so those that aren't able to are DQed or face 6 month suspension, that the rest of us that can do the work are willing to stay a little longer at the track that day even though we cleared tech and help our fellow racers out to comply. I know I am certainly willing to do that. The only thing I won't do is to turn a wrench on someone elses car where the driver is unwilling to turn the wrench with me.

 

In the end, the MRLS event I think will turn out to be a watershed moment for these constant issues of compliance. And I thank the guys for doing it, and offer my regrets to Drennan who was the best driver of the day regardless. The overall value far outweighs any Monday morning critique on how it could have been done better. The fact of the matter is that it was done within the rules and highlighted issues.

[Ken SM94]

 

 

I for one am glad you guys did what you did. I am sorry for the fall out on those that don't deserve it but I am equally sorry for the impact that people that push the rules beyond the limit have had on those that feel constrained by them.

 

 

Thanks Jamz14, I didn't mean to imply it has been all bad.  Except for some of the directly affected and some of their loyalists, the support has been mostly good.

 

We had a tremendous amount of support from the racers at the Runoffs and got donations from racers very close to some of the affected teams.  The SCCA officials told us when we filed the protest that "this has been needed for a long time".  They did everything in their power to help us out and guide us through the process of a multi-car protest.  So not all bad.