139 replies to this topic

[LarryKing]

By taping the grill vs using a t-stat is there is a tuning advantage for 99+? If so why would I support this rule (creep)?

[Jim Drago]

OMG you guys are funny :0

Plain and simply, This rule was written to stop us many thought we "figured" something our with taping. A complete joke, all we figured out is we don't want to use a t stat as they fail.  Now we do the same thing, but it is now a PITA! Ironically, many of the same people bitching about us taping are no complaining what a PITA this rule is and why do we need to pull radiator to tape it etc. I find all of it very stupid and very funny at the same time. 

 

 I then made a new grille that conformed to the rule and spent $300 to have its legality confirmed by the SCCA with a compliance review rather than risk a protest at 2013 runoffs and all my cars moved to the back after qualifying.  The rule was again "modified" to make my new rock screens illegal. It was another advantage of being on the CRB.   I'll see if I have a picture. I have 4 or 5 $150 paper weights hanging in the shop now

Jim

 

 

 

 

I would like to submit a rock screen for a compliance review in SM. I would like an answer before the Runoffs as the only reason we are submitting is we want to avoid a potential protest issue that may result in losing our qualifying times. We have started using these rock screen a few months ago on all of our cars.

 

I have pasted the current rule and attached several pictures. 

 

Here is the current rule:

 

5. A radiator screen of 1/4 inch minimum mesh may be 

added in front of the radiator and contained within the 

bodywork. Tape and/or other materials may not be applied 

to the mesh or in the radiator opening in the bodywork. 

Tape or other materials may only be added directly to the 

radiator

 

 

Most competitors use rock screen like image 28,29 and 30. You can see the bends and how many things have already made it through that screen. You see they are connected with zip ties to a flimsy piece of plastic. They are not very sturdy, short of bugs and very light and small  pieces of debris, they don't stop much. 

 

We switched to the new design( images 24,25,26) for several reasons, primarily to save our engines. They also look way cooler  We have had several rock screens fail, two resulted in punctures in the radiators and lost engines. A $7500 loss each time. The water would leak out, the gauge and temp warning light would not alert the driver ( as there is no longer fluid to monitor temperature of, just 180 or so degree air) and the motor would over heat and fail miserably, usually leaving nothing that is even reusable.  We also have over heated because the old screen creates a trap for large debris. We have had big( huge) leaves at the Runoffs at Road America fill up the screen and again over heat the engine. The new design will stop this as well. If you look at the pictures, there are multiple attachment points for strength. 

 

The new screen is attached with and outer ring and fastened directly to the bumper with screws and/or rivets. It is made "of 1/4 inch minimum mesh' and it is "contained within the 

bodywork" per the rules and is my belief this is 100% compliant.

 

The only reason I can see someone protesting and even considering the protest is the thought of a potential aero advantage. The 1/4 mesh must be secured with the ring around the outside to give the mesh the strength to actually stop anything of substance from going through the radiator. You also have to be able to attach the rock screen some how, zip ties to a plastic divider are not a realistic solution for anyone. The radiator opening in the bumper is tapered, the hole opening in the rock screen ( inside the bracket ring) is still larger than the opening of of the bumper at the rear( closest to the radiator) where the air actually gets to the radiator.

 

Please advise before the Runoffs so we know how to proceed and let me know how to send the fee for the review

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DECISION OF THE SCCA COMPLIANCE REVIEW FOR JIM DRAGO, SM / ROCK SCREEN

August 27, 2013

Facts –

Jim Drago, SM competitor, submitted a request for review of a rock screen to see if it complies with the requirements of GCR 9.1.7.C.o.5.  He requested resolution in advance of the Runoffs.

Jim Averitt, Chairman of the Stewards Program, appointed a Review Committee, per GCR 8.1.4.  That committee consisted of Gloria Larson (RMDiv); Dan Hodge (GLDiv); Rick Kosdrosky (SWDiv); and JoAnne Jensen (CNDiv), Chair.

The group met by conference call on 8/20 and on 8/22 to review the stipulations of GCR 8.1.4.; to evaluate the photographs and text provided by Mr. Drago; to consider GCR 9.1.7.C.o.5. and to determine if any other citations would apply in this case; to hear testimony from Jim Wheeler, Chairman of the CRB; and to make a decision.

Discussion –

The Committee determined that GCR 9.1.7.C.o.5. is, in fact, the applicable citation for this case.  It reads as follows in its entirety:

A radiator screen of ¼ inch minimum mesh may be added in front of the radiator and contained within the bodywork.  Tape and / or other materials may not be applied to the mesh or in the radiator opening in the bodywork.  Tape or other materials may only be added directly to the radiator.

Mr. Drago offered photographs of both the most popular installation of the rock screen and of the installation which he adopted “several months ago” for all cars he prepares.  It should be noted that the second and third sentences of 9.1.7.C.o.5. are new for 2013.

The language in this rule provides multiple tests which the installation must pass to be compliant.  Without question, the screen in Mr. Drago’s installation is ¼ inch minimum mesh and it is located in front of the radiator.

In his testimony, Mr. Wheeler stated that he had no doubt that Mr. Drago’s installation meets the “within the bodywork” requirement.  However, there is doubt in the minds of the Committee with respect to the mesh.   According to Mr. Drago’s statement and our observation of the photographs, the radiator opening in the bumper curls inward.  The Committee is unclear as to whether “within the bodywork” means within the plane of the exterior contour of the bumper and radiator opening OR inside the edge of the lip formed on the interior of the opening.

The primary issue for the Committee is that “tape and / or other materials may not be applied to the mesh”.  Mr. Drago’s statement that “the new screen is attached with an outer ring and fastened directly to the bumper with screws and / or rivets” led us to ask Mr. Wheeler how the mesh was attached to the ring.  When asked, Mr. Wheeler indicated that the mesh was likely attached to the ring by an adhesive – which would have to be applied to the mesh in direct opposition to the requirement of the rule.  Mr. Wheeler acknowledged and agreed with the Committee that the adhesive constitutes “other materials”.

Finally, the ring itself is “fastened directly to the bumper with screws and / or rivets”.  The Committee believes that this violates the restriction that “tape or other materials may only be added directly to the radiator” because the ring is an “other material” and it is fastened at the exterior of the radiator opening.

This is a classic case of the conflict between the letter and the spirit of the law.  This installation meets the spirit of the law as explained by Mr. Wheeler.  The rule was instituted to refrain competitors from taping the mesh during qualifying, which would improve aero.  The words which achieve that also prohibit Mr. Drago’s installation, in our view.  This is a superior installation in that it provides better protection by being stronger and more stoutly attached, thus allowing less intrusion by foreign objects likely to damage the radiator.  

The Committee has deliberately and consciously taken a very narrow or close textual position with respect to compliance because we believe that the task of a Review Committee is to apply the letter rather than the spirit.  As a result, the Committee finds that this installation is non-compliant and does not meet the requirements of the rule.

It is our understanding that the Court of Appeals will automatically review this decision, based on 8.1.4.B.  If they have any questions, I am available for discussion.

Thank you,

On behalf of Gloria Larson, Dan Hodge, and Rick Kosdrosky,

 

 

JoAnne Jensen

[LarryKing]

I think there is a lack of understanding of what a "spec" class is.

 

PS: I'm calling BS on the T-stat failure. There are millions of cars on the road, all with thermostats. What would you guess the failure rate is?

[Jim Drago]

I think there is a lack of understanding of what a "spec" class is.

 

PS: I'm calling BS on the T-stat failure. There are millions of cars on the road, all with thermostats. What would you guess the failure rate is?

 

I'm glad you are calling it  Can you pay for the motors that fail because of it as well? BTW I run them in all VVT cars as they like to run hotter. getting ready to put in all (( cars as well as it is becoming to much of a PITA not too.

For the record..  I had one fail on the dyno the last week on my personal VVT car.  I pulled it and heated the coolant on stove  to 225 degrees before it finally started to open.  I'll dig it out of the trash and send to you if you like. It was new out of the box Stant. I also lost an engine at Sebring two years ago as another prep shop installed our engine with a tstat that never opened, over heated within a lap or so at Sebring, weekend over, motor fried.  About a $9000-10000 lap after you figure travel and new engine install

[LarryKing]

Can you describe the failure - did it stick closed?

[Bench Racer]

Block rear of radiator, any radiator.

 

PSI gauge in water system.

 

Is there a leave the thermostat out specification in the FSM? Don't anyone get your shorts all wadded up, it's just a question.  

[MPR22]

Can you describe the failure - did it stick closed?

I have had 2 stick closed that were not fail safes.  

I have about 5 fail safes that have stuck open.  I will send you the current one in my VVT that failed open during its inaugural weekend of use.  

The T stats are very blunt tools.   As to someones earlier question about the performance advantage of proper operating temperature, it is an advantage for all models of SM.  They all have an optimum operating temperature.  The guys worried about 0.5 HP increments want to be able to reliably hit their optimum heat range.  

[Jim Drago]

Block rear of radiator, any radiator.

 

PSI gauge in water system.

 

Is there a leave the thermostat out specification in the FSM? Don't anyone get your shorts all wadded up, it's just a question.  

 

You mean like my current radiator that does not work nearly as well as the tape on the grille? 

good suggestion on water pressure sensor, too bad you didn't make 4-5 years ago when we started using pressure warning lights after we lost our first engine due to screen failure. 

Could care less if there is a spec or not, protest away. 

 

 

[LarryKing]

 

The T stats are very blunt tools.

 

As opposed to the precise temperature control of tape on the grill?

[FTodaro]

This is what i am not getting from the negative comments.

 

if its low cost(penny's worth) of tape

any one can do, (bend over apply tape to screen)

no competitive advantage, (because anyone can do and afford 1 and 2 above)

easier than applying tape to the radiator

 

Why would you argue the point.

 

What is the down side. You can apply tape to a 1.6,. a 1.8 a 99 and a VVT = total taping parity.

 

or is it that you just like to take the other side of an argument to take the other side of an argument,

 

Just not sure i see why this is bad in any way, low cost low tech

 

A Stat is not the best answer. the analogy is adjusting on the car with Air pressure vs. cross wt. an air pressure adjustment is a fine tune adjustment. So is tape.

 

Can anyone give me a good reason not too?

[LarryKing]

Frank, the fact that you are so adamant gives me cause for concern that you are asking for a rule that can be exploited to a competition advantage.

[FTodaro]

Frank, the fact that you are so adamant gives me cause for concern that you are asking for a rule that can be exploited to a competition advantage.

Walter I am adamant about everything.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

OMG, I think that taping my radiator is probably the only reason I ever won a race, I should never have showed Frank this trick, now he is winning races...

 

I think the sky might be falling...  

 

If Denny and Dave would spend the time they have wasted on this topic to actually submitting real solid ideas for a 1.6 rescue plan can you imagine where SM would be today?  We would be the largest subscribed class!  

 

BTW I used the wind tunnel in my cave to figure out this scientific aproach to taping the grill to win.  I am going to write  a best seller for the racing community called "Tape To Win" it will far outsell that how to build a spec miata they sell out of the great white north EH...

 

Frank I had not idea that you were Really Adam Ant???  

[Jim Drago]

This is what i am not getting from the negative comments.

 

if its low cost(penny's worth) of tape

any one can do, (bend over apply tape to screen)

no competitive advantage, (because anyone can do and afford 1 and 2 above)

easier than applying tape to the radiator

The negative comments are coming from 1.6 guys who don't want to tape their grille as they are worrying about heat soak, so likely would never tape their grille. I actually understand that point, one of the few I can at least understand the hows and why's 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

The negative comments are coming from 1.6 guys who don't want to tape their grille as they are worrying about heat soak, so likely would never tape their grille. I actually understand that point, one of the few I can at least understand the hows and why's 

 

And if that is actually so...  Then why would they want to use a tStat?  

[davew]

 

 

BTW I used the wind tunnel in my cave to figure out this scientific aproach to taping the grill to win.  I am going to write  a best seller for the racing community called "Tape To Win" it will far outsell that how to build a spec miata they sell out of the great white north EH...

 

 

 

Kyle, write away. You can even get Charbs to submit a chapter or 2

 

dave

[MPR22]

Frank, the fact that you are so adamant gives me cause for concern that you are asking for a rule that can be exploited to a competition advantage.

Some people inherently distrusts people, yet the same people love big government.  I believe that is why Liberalism has be been called a mental disorder.  

[Todd Lamb]

Some people just enjoy being "Pro-Anti".

[tferranti]

LOL, never knew this was "illegal", in Texas everyone has used tape for years.

[Jim Drago]

LOL, never knew this was "illegal", in Texas everyone has used tape for years.

They do a lot of things in Texas that are illegal in most states... Unfortunately most involves incest and llivestock