270 replies to this topic

[davew]

Todd, great thread. Much better than the BS we have been dealing with the last few months.

 

I hope many of you midpackers pay attention. Most of what Todd is saying is a couple steps beyond what you should have learned at driver school. But without the help of a knowledgable coach or team mate, you never learn this stuff. 

 

I agree with everything Todd has said. It is the same things that I teach. I am the "can't do, but can teach" person.

 

This thread is worth 5 torque under 5500 rpm for all 1.6's.  99ers, ignore all of this

 

dave

[Jamz14]

Yes!!!! Finally a great thread! Thank you Todd for doing this.

 

I found Mike and yours comment very interesting about hand position. I watched my first race weekend videos and noticed that I have an asymmetrical hand position on corner entry and move my hands to be 9-3 by mid corner similar to what Mike said. I was coached by a good friend that this was bad but didn't quite understand why. You have given me something to consider and I appreciate you sharing your experience with us.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

In SM we spend a considerable amount of time on setup. We get it where we want it before we leave for the track, and recheck several times throughout the weekend to make sure things haven't changed (they usually move a little).
This allows us to make small changes at the track - usually cross and ride height are the only adjustments needed. Mid Ohio requires some other oddball adjustments to keep up with Bennett.
The baseline setup is neutral. The adjustments keep it neutral. It is a driver preference thing somewhat, but having a neutral car means very little speed scrub from sliding one end or the other. It also means when the track changes (gets grippy or greasy) the balance of the car doesn't change, so there's no "chasing the setup".

When you say neutral do you mean weight or wedge or both ?

Do you recommend setting the car as loose as you can get it and how do you jugde when it's to loose ?

[High Chair]

Todd thanks for taking to time to help your fellow SMers. I'm glad somebody finally changed the subject to something more enjoyable. 

[Todd Lamb]

Neutral meaning neither loose nor tight. A nice balance throughout the corner. As Rob eluded to, the handling at entry can be managed a bit by driver inputs, but once you put the power down you're at the mercy of the car.

 

Also worth mentioning here: adjust the car for the first thing that it doesn't do right in the corner, and make sure it isn't driver induced. Driver induced examples: too much trailbraking and driver complains of loose car. Overslowing corner entry then back to power very early and driver complains of tight car.

 

In terms of wedge (cross for us road racers)...you adjust that to get the balance even turning both left and right.

 

In terms of the overall balance, there's a lot to play with, but I like to keep it simple. A ride height change in the rear usually does the job, but there's many ways to accomplish. Camber, toe, tire pressure, swaybar etc.

 

 

 

 

When you say neutral do you mean weight or wedge or both ?

Do you recommend setting the car as loose as you can get it and how do you jugde when it's to loose ?

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I never messed with ride height at the track before I always left it alone and only adjusted the toe at the tracks .

What does it do to the handling when you raise it or lower it ?

Thanks for sharing all of this info Todd this is all very helpful !

[Todd Lamb]

Glad everyone is enjoying the change of topic!

 

The short version: Raising the car removes grip. Lowering the car adds grip.

 

The long version has to do with roll centers and other technical stuff.

 

So if the car is a little loose you can lower the rear to add some grip and balance out the car. Keep in mind the toe changes a little as does the camber so you have to factor this in.

[davew]

My process has always been to raise or lower only the rear of the car, unless you have the time to recheck everything. You should be able to go up or down 2 turns without effecting toe or camber to much to drive it.

 

Others may disagree

 

dave

[Johnny D]

2 turns until your shocks bottom out as well, Dave ?

J~

[Jamz14]

Johnny!!

 

Nice to hear your words again.

[Johnny D]

Hear ?? 

Thanks,

J~

[Cnj]

Todd,

Thanks for starting this thread. My questions:

1. In "Driving to the Edge" Michael Krumm strongly promotes preloading (initial pre-turn) before the true turn-in point. This is mostly on slow to medium corners. Your thoughts?

2. Related to the above, I have been told that when one looks at pro drivers data compared to amateurs (which I embody...), the pros are not just faster in minimum corner speed, but they also drive a shorter track. Sometimes up to 50- 75 feet a lap. Your thoughts?

CNJ.

[Todd Lamb]

CNJ - a lot of that applies to high horsepower cars.

 

With SM we don't have any power, so from turn in to track out you need to pretty much be at maximum cornering speed at the maximum radius through the corner. This is "momentum car" driving, and it is a little bit different than medium or high HP cars. For SM I tend to ask clients to turn in later rather than earlier.

 

With high HP, you diamond the corners a bit (the initial pre-turn), putting a premium on braking later and further into the corner, parking the car at the apex to get it turned in a small distance and pointed straight-ish, and then mashing the gas again to drag race to the next corner. A bit of exaggeration, but that's the general idea. This took me a few races to get the hang of when I was lucky enough to have Mazda put me in the Rolex GT car. I was trying to drive it like a momentum car, with lots of speed at the apex. I faster than Jordan Taylor at the apex, but he was killing me at the exit and down the straightaway. I was first to power, but he was first to full throttle and long gone while I was still battling furiously with the steering and throttle (asking the car to do too much at one time). I learned, but it was an adjustment and eye-opening experience. None of this applies to SM, but it does explain the Michael Krumm principles.

[Kevin B]

Thank you for sharing, Todd.

 

You mostly addressed my primary question right out of the gate.  How do I improve my brake release technique on slow and mid-speed corners.

 

When you're looking at data, from say TraqMate/TraqDash, which areas apart from max cornering g's (and, obviously, lap time/speed vs distance) would indicate improvement?  If the tach data is available would brake pressure sensor input also be a vital input here or is there other information to be gleaned from "standard" model data without the extra analog inputs (steering wheel position and brakes)?

 

Secondly, if you will, downshifting.  From high speed lead-ins to slower corner transitions, does approach vary with any significance when you're dropping multiple gears versus a single/no downshift corner?  I'm convinced I regularly over-slow the car at 5th to 3rd, 4th to 2nd transitions due to fear of mechanical over-rev if too hot and the rpm match won't cover it...

 

Thank you for your help,

 

Kevin

[Todd Lamb]

Kevin - brake pressure is a very useful tool when it comes to analyzing braking and trailbraking. It's one thing to look at velocity, but brake pressure will give very detailed insight into what's happening. Most of my clients already have brake pressure or we add it - AIM and Traqmate users alike.

 

Steering wheel position can be helpful too, but I usually watch the video to get a sense of steering angles. This is a bit more of a luxury as far as sensors go.

 

Downshifting - I get this question a lot, so let me give several answers. First, downshifting is just a means of being in the right rpm range. If you are downshifting 3 gears, 1 gear, or not at all, the approach doesn't change. In other words, the downshifting should not affect your braking or turning. Downshifting happens in the background - kind of like a Windows update but without the reboot afterwards. With enough practice, it becomes second nature (right about now you should be thinking "muscle memory").

 

As you eluded to, it's pretty easy to overslow a corner trying to get a downshift in. If you suspect that is a problem you can try skipping the downshift(s) one corner when you are running alone and then compare entry speeds to a lap where you downshift.

 

The next answer is this: it doesn't matter if you go 5-4-3-2 or 5-2 in terms of lap times. If you feel overwhelmed or rushed, it may help to just do the 5-2 but of course you need to do this very late in the brake zone or you'll be buying a new motor. And you need to be pretty good at matching revs.

 

I personally go through all the gears on downshifts as I don't like the revs to drop too low and I'm always in the right gear for any particular moment in time. It also gives me a good sense of when I can make the final downshift since the revs are still in the right range (also a helpful tool for learning what gear to be in on new tracks).

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I have been under the impression that as long as u stay under 7500 rpm on downshift we are all good.

[Chris D.]

Wow....awesome thread.   Thanks Todd!   This has given me some great ideas on what I need to work on this season and what to look for in my data.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I have to say I have learned most everything I know or even forgot from Todd and Jim. This is the cool thing about sm people help one another. But I can say this the thread will help all that read. But hiring a coach for a weekend or several will help 1mil times more. I was already winning races when I got myself a coaching weekend but I learned more in that weekend then I did the prior two years with several wins and a ton of regional podiums.

[ChrisA]

I have two

 

1. can you use lifting off the throttle even in slower corners to help turn or rotate the car vs. trail braking and if so when?

 

 

Can be useful at VIR Turn 5A (see new map as they have updated corner numbers slightly.)

[zoomzoom22]

Awesome thread.

Non SM question, while driving a high horsepower car at Sebring lately, front straight, bad pogo-ing in the rear over the bumps on the front straight away and thru turn 1. Almost scary pogo-ing. Car never felt great all weekend but particularly rough 17 thru 1 with the pogo sticking rear or pourposing. We made lots of small adjustments but never quite got rid of it during the weekend.

1). What say you as to the type of adjustments you would have likely made?
2). When you are way off, what say you on the debate of small incremental changes or bigger changes or change sizes commensurate with how far you are off?