270 replies to this topic

[mhiggins10]

If you have a data system and don't use it much, before you add any sensors get comfortable using the basic system and reviewing the data. Usually a day with someone that knows data analysis will give you enough to think about for months of racing. You can get a lot from rpm, velocity, and g loads.
 

 

Thanks for doing this Todd!!  For a back-pack guy, what are some basic data things I can start doing with the data points you mention above?  That's about all I have and I'm currently looking at:

 

* Max g/ g in each corner- am I using all of my grip?  Where can I push harder?

* Entry/Apex/Exit speeds- Am I consistent, lap to lap?

* End of straight speeds- Am I consistent? 

* Fastest lap vs. others- what did I do right on my best lap vs others?

 

I occassionally get data from a friend who runs at the front of the pack from the same race, but the only thing I can really tell is he's braking later, faster through the corners, faster at the end of the straights, and thus faster overall.  How do I turn this into actionable things for me to work on?

[Todd Lamb]

You won't really drive differently on older tires. They may take a few more laps to come in, and will have marginally less overall grip, but the techniques are the same.

I like this thread, thanks Todd. I have a question which I dont know if there is an answer to or not. In my 2 years driving a spec miata (1.6), I have never driven on sticker tires. I have very awesome teammates who donate their take-offs to me. Most of them have around 4-6 heat cycles on them before I get them. Given that, most people around me either have stickers or fresher tires. How differently am I supposed to drive, if at all, on older tires compared to all the other guys around me on stickers? Or am I just at a loss all the way around because mine are older. I have no idea if I am doing the right thing or what, because I dont know the difference between stickers and the ones I use. Hopefully that makes sense...

[MPR22]

Todd,

 

Kudos on a great thread.  Thanks.

 

To many out here, especially supported SM customers, I play the drivers coach role out in our little pond.  I get frustrated at times as I haven't been able to get a coach such as yourself that will talk theory enough to help me be a better driver as well as being able to give me a data lap to aspire to.  I often end up piecemealing someones better section to glean improvements in my own driving, which isn't really clicking with me much.

 

One of my customers and I have been working hard on the Krumm line philosophy.  I agree with you that without acceleration capability off a corner, the effect is lost or diminished, however we have some 2nd gear hairpins that it, at times, helps with.  I am afraid that we actually have just used the Krumm line to become aware of our trailbraking shortcomings, and that is where the gains have actually came from.  (Hence all cars this year got brake PSI sensors).

 

So, with that background info, I posted Danny's speed trace from NOLA (from one of those parity threads) because it has examples of data traces I am struggling to explain to myself and others.  Focusing on the trace shapes at the end of brake zones, check out the brake zone after the 2nd fastest spot on the course.  (About 9000 feet into lap).  I see examples like this on our data all the time.  The blue trace (without benefit of a cursor to move) seems to be some neutral apex corner where Danny brakes down to some minimum speed, works around the corner and pulls off.  The red line, the brakes are released slower, the trough at the bottom is not symmetrical, and there is an instantaneous (nearly) transition to the speed trace picking up sharply.  Furthermore, and most puzzling to me, is that the minimum speed point in the red trace is WAY around the corner, past the apex, and nearly at the track out point (as defined by the blue trace behavior).  AND, if the red trace really is an example of driving that deep into the corner and slowing all the way to exit, it still has stellar acceleration from that point into the next feature, even over the blue trace that accelerated earlier (presumably with turning mostly done).  I realize in this case there are two cars here, but I have lots of examples where this is the case within the same car from overlaying several laps and finding an outlier example identical to this.  I suspect Danny's cars are very close to each other anyway in this area.  Couple this with a time gap trace, and I find these examples often are the best section times. 

 

The conclusion seems to be drive in too deep and gather it up at the exit...  which I basically don't think is correct.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks,

Kyle

Kyle, 

 

Not a data expert by any means, which corners specifically are you asking about?

[KW78]

Kyle, 

 

Not a data expert by any means, which corners specifically are you asking about?

 

I've never seen NOLA and I don't know where Danny's S/F is set, so I don't know the corner.  It is just a principle that has come out of data analysis multiple times now that we are conscientiously varying the "classic" line that has been perpetuated for so long in SCCA. 

 

Kyle

[MPR22]

I've never seen NOLA and I don't know where Danny's S/F is set, so I don't know the corner.  It is just a principle that has come out of data analysis multiple times now that we are conscientiously varying the "classic" line that has been perpetuated for so long in SCCA. 

 

Kyle

5500-7500 is turn 5 and 6.  I think that may be where you are talking about. 

[KW78]

5500-7500 is turn 5 and 6.  I think that may be where you are talking about. 

 

On Dannys graph, I am talking about 9000 and 12500 on the bottom scale.  You could work out the turn if you know where the fastest point is on the track and go forward from there.  I just don't know the rythm of the track so I can't tell.

[LarryKing]

Todd, when you are coaching a driver how do you advise them regarding alcohol comsumption during a race weekend.

 

I know that Saturday night bench racing is a big part of this hobby for some and I also see some very hung-over people on Sunday.

 

(My personal preferrence is to abstain on race weekends)

[Randy Wolfgram]

On Dannys graph, I am talking about 9000 and 12500 on the bottom scale.  You could work out the turn if you know where the fastest point is on the track and go forward from there.  I just don't know the rythm of the track so I can't tell.

 

I don't know the track either, which probably means I shouldn't comment, but from looking at the track layout and the speed traces, I'd say you are looking at T9 and T16 in those two spots.

[KW78]

 

I occassionally get data from a friend who runs at the front of the pack from the same race, but the only thing I can really tell is he's braking later, faster through the corners, faster at the end of the straights, and thus faster overall.  How do I turn this into actionable things for me to work on?

 

Forgive me I do not mean to Hijack Todd's thread here.

 

Drivers ask this all the time.  The data is showing you quantified results of another drivers use of the car (yours or theirs).  The response I tell people is if you want to know what hands and feet are doing, track hands and feet... 

 

Every driver learning situation should have TPS, Brake Pressure, Steering angle, and a camera going with the data, IMO.  It is an investment I know.  But I wish I would have got that before I spent the race budget on 3 or 4 seasons of partial information, or NO information for much of that.  Additionally, once I had information, I had (and still have) a huge pile of bad (muscle memory) habits that I still have to work on every outing.  Realizing and practicing the right way around, right out of the box, would have saved me thousands and thousands of dollars in chasing irrelevant things (like 2 hp), buying new tires when that didn't help, and maybe even winning more tires....  and wasting the finite time we have in track time while not getting better.

 

My .02!

 

Kyle

[MPR22]

On Dannys graph, I am talking about 9000 and 12500 on the bottom scale.  You could work out the turn if you know where the fastest point is on the track and go forward from there.  I just don't know the rythm of the track so I can't tell.

That is coming out of the esses into the hard brake zone through the last section of turns. It is most certainly not your standard set of turns with normal apexes. It's a pretty complex little series of turns that would show up with some stranged accel/decell points on time vs distance graph.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Funny true story...
 
I had a very good friend who just loved to store things in his trunk like well jack stands and more.  I found them when I set his car up but put them back in the trunk when I was done.  We got to the track had a good practice day and for whatever reason at the end of the day he put all that stuff back in the trunk. Next morning for qualifying in his hurry he did not remove the jackstands etc and we rolled up to grid for qual.  We took off with him on my bumper only for me to see him do one lap then fade away and next thing I know he is on pit road with all kinds of dents in the quarter pannels.  
 
He was so sure that the car was falling apart had he known he already had taken on the body damage maybe he could have tried to beat me for the poll lol.

That's funny Kyle but I have another one for you because you know I'm slightly retarded !

I pulled up to grid at Mid-O and forgot i scaled my car the night before and left 165lbs of weight in the trunk. Oh the noise was awesome and the best part of it was a bunch of guys came up to talk to me right after qualifying and I forgot it again. Luckily I remembered before the start of the race and unloaded my trunk on grid and all the other guys thought it was hysterical !

So the point here is to make sure you don't have anything in your trunk !

[Steve Scheifler]

Todd, how much do you rely on inanimate objects and other visual queues (other than actual brake markers) for your brake and turn-in points? Where you do use them but are in traffic, off line, or otherwise not at the ideal speed and position, do you still rely on the markers and adjust mentally, or more often fall back on your innate sense of when to brake or turn?

Somewhat related, when you are nose-to-tale behind someone and not trying to set up a pass, are you easing off just slightly approaching a corner then pretty much just reacting to / following their lead? We've all done this but sometimes watching video I'm impressed by how close one car stays behind the next even at the start of brake zones without inadvertently punting them.

[RazerX]

Todd,  thanks for sharing your wisdom.

 

I have a corner, that I know I can do better, I know I lose 1/2 to a competitor on, and I think I know how to improve, but my damn muscle memory seems to foil 'relearning' a corner.  How do erase a bad habit or bad muscle memory?

[Tom Sager]

Todd, how much do you rely on inanimate objects and other visual queues (other than actual brake markers) for your brake and turn-in points? Where you do use them but are in traffic, off line, or otherwise not at the ideal speed and position, do you still rely on the markers and adjust mentally, or more often fall back on your innate sense of when to brake or turn?

 

This, visual cues IMO is a very underappreciated practice for racers.  Some athletic trainers in other sports train athletes in this area specifically to improve their timing and speed.  

 

Todd, great thread.    

[Todd Lamb]

Kyle, regarding the data trace at 9000FT....

The red trace is typical of an experienced driver utilizing a lot of trailbraking, coupled with letting the front end of the car scrub speed while off brake (via turning). Another way to put it is that deceleration doesn't end when you let off the brakes. While the front tires are turned there is a lot of "braking effect". Get the balance of trailbraking and this right and there's a lot of speed to be gained on corner entry while not losing anything on exit.

The blue graph looks like traffic, not quite comfortable with the handling, learning the track, or not "up on the wheel" etc. No trailbraking and lots of time lost at corner entry. If I was looking at it right it was 5mph difference at one point. That's not an apples to apples comparison knowing who the driver was and the cars.

Also to revisit the Krumm thing. Yes even in SM second gear corners can benefit from a little bit of the "diamond off the corner" strategy. There's enough torque in second to have to get the car pointed a little straighter on exit before power down. Example would be the hairpin at Sebring.

[Todd Lamb]

Not just max G but area under the curve. How long at max G is a better data analysis.


Your comparison driver is braking later and is faster. So your question should be why? What do you see differently on the data? The speed trace only tells you how much and where. The g's tell you why, as will video review. And add additional sensors to get an even clearer picture.

Thanks for doing this Todd!! For a back-pack guy, what are some basic data things I can start doing with the data points you mention above? That's about all I have and I'm currently looking at:

* Max g/ g in each corner- am I using all of my grip? Where can I push harder?
* Entry/Apex/Exit speeds- Am I consistent, lap to lap?
* End of straight speeds- Am I consistent?
* Fastest lap vs. others- what did I do right on my best lap vs others?

I occassionally get data from a friend who runs at the front of the pack from the same race, but the only thing I can really tell is he's braking later, faster through the corners, faster at the end of the straights, and thus faster overall. How do I turn this into actionable things for me to work on?

[Todd Lamb]

When it comes to alcohol, buy as many rounds as your competitors will drink.

Alcohol dehydrates the body. Hydration is a key to performing well in the heat and under pressure. From a pro perspective, eating right and hydrating are very important for on-track performance.

I don't usually let that stop me from having a beer at the end of the day during a club racing weekend. And I haven't had to advise clients against partying too hard because they are mentally drained after a day of coaching and ready to sleep. Changing habits and learning new tricks in a car are hard work mentally. I remember my first few Skippy weekends: I was in bed by 8pm every night. Exhausted and still working on downshifts in my sleep.

Todd, when you are coaching a driver how do you advise them regarding alcohol comsumption during a race weekend.

I know that Saturday night bench racing is a big part of this hobby for some and I also see some very hung-over people on Sunday.

(My personal preferrence is to abstain on race weekends)

[Todd Lamb]

Spot on Kyle. Spend the money on making the driver faster first.

The only hesitation I have with adding all the sensors too soon is a new data user being overwhelmed with too much information and having no idea what to do with it.

We have switched over to AIM in all our new builds, including all the driver sensors except steering angle so far (string pots are on the shelf when drivers are ready for that step).

A quick plug for Roger Caddell: we are going to be hosting an AIM data seminar with Roger sometime in this year in Atlanta. If you aren't in the area, check his schedule for other seminars he is doing. Well worth the time.

Forgive me I do not mean to Hijack Todd's thread here.

Drivers ask this all the time. The data is showing you quantified results of another drivers use of the car (yours or theirs). The response I tell people is if you want to know what hands and feet are doing, track hands and feet...

Every driver learning situation should have TPS, Brake Pressure, Steering angle, and a camera going with the data, IMO. It is an investment I know. But I wish I would have got that before I spent the race budget on 3 or 4 seasons of partial information, or NO information for much of that. Additionally, once I had information, I had (and still have) a huge pile of bad (muscle memory) habits that I still have to work on every outing. Realizing and practicing the right way around, right out of the box, would have saved me thousands and thousands of dollars in chasing irrelevant things (like 2 hp), buying new tires when that didn't help, and maybe even winning more tires.... and wasting the finite time we have in track time while not getting better.

My .02!

Kyle

[Todd Lamb]

Two good questions.

I rely on a sight picture for my own driving. I couldn't tell you that I turn at the third seam from the end of the fence post from memory. But I can very accurately turn at the same point every time based on the sight picture. And if I review video I can pick out reference points.

For coaching I do use reference points and sight picture by advancing video frame by frame. The typical word of caution is that you don't want to pick a reference point that can move from session to session. And certainly don't expect the lawn mowing crew to place brake markers back in the same place every time - always work your way up to the braking points...they may not be where you expect them to be based on the markers.


As you mention, the problem with reference points is that they can be obscured by a car in front, or during a pass. And...you're focusing on a point, not the entire view nor looking through the corner. So in terms of passing, if you're using reference points you'd need estimate where an obscured reference may be and mentally adjust.

If think the "innate sense" you mention falls more into the sight picture technique. One way I describe it is that the stars align, all the trees line up, and the combination lock hits the correct sequence. Everything falls into its visual place and that's your cue.

Reference points are a great way to learn and you can be fast using them, but if you've kept your eyes UP and have been looking through the corners and way ahead, the sight picture will start to develop. The more laps you get, the better the sight picture. The more times you are off line making a pass, the more data you have to develop alternative sight pictures which allow you to develop that "innate sense" and hold your position or make a pass off line.

For the second question - how close the drivers are says a lot about how much they trust the other drivers. There are guys you know you can count on to keep the car under them. You run them close. Then there are the wild card guys you don't even trust driving to grid. Lay off them going into the brake zones.

When following anyone, drive the track, NOT the bumper in front of you. You don't want to be following their lead or reacting to them, you want to be doing your thing so you don't make their mistakes.

Todd, how much do you rely on inanimate objects and other visual queues (other than actual brake markers) for your brake and turn-in points? Where you do use them but are in traffic, off line, or otherwise not at the ideal speed and position, do you still rely on the markers and adjust mentally, or more often fall back on your innate sense of when to brake or turn?

Somewhat related, when you are nose-to-tale behind someone and not trying to set up a pass, are you easing off just slightly approaching a corner then pretty much just reacting to / following their lead? We've all done this but sometimes watching video I'm impressed by how close one car stays behind the next even at the start of brake zones without inadvertently punting them.

[Todd Lamb]

Muscle memory starts with memory. (Work with me here).

You have to focus on making the change. Consistently and repeatedly.

No distractions of other cars or racing. In the heat of battle or with your buddy in the rear view mirror I can promise that you will revert back to old habits.

Cheapest seat time? Mental laps. Visualize what you want to do differently in the car.

Sit in your car with the engine off. Close your eyes and start a lap. Move the steering/Push the pedals/Shift gears. Think about the release of the brake and the application of throttle. Visualize the corners. Make the changes you want to make to your driving during these mental laps. This will form new muscle memory and it won't be so overwhelming on track.

You can also do this at your hotel sitting on the edge of the bed or sitting in your car on grid (during that 10 minute oil clean up for the big bore group).

Todd, thanks for sharing your wisdom.

I have a corner, that I know I can do better, I know I lose 1/2 to a competitor on, and I think I know how to improve, but my damn muscle memory seems to foil 'relearning' a corner. How do erase a bad habit or bad muscle memory?