51 replies to this topic

[Alberto]

Had a call with the good people at Carbotech and figured it out.  Seems like what we have here is a failure to communicate. Basically, the terminology being used is inaccurate.

 

The "pre-bedding" of pads basically refer to de-gassing the brake pads - i.e. getting the brake pad material hot so that the gasses from the chemicals, epoxies, resins, whatever get released.  This does not need to be performed with the specific rotors that you plan to use on the car.

 

The pads also need to be "bedded" to the rotors  - i.e. get a transfer layer on the rotors from the pads.  If the pads are de-gassed, this can be done in a manner similar to other pads in 1-2 laps.

[Jamz14]

So what about rumors of backing plate curing?

 

Do you find it worth the $25.00 to de-gas your pads that you will ultimately still need to bed to the rotor now? Or does that sound kinda like the "technically correct" but irrelevant in practice idea I presented?

[Alberto]

So what about rumors of backing plate curing?

 

Do you find it worth the $25.00 to de-gas your pads that you will ultimately still need to bed to the rotor now? Or does that sound kinda like the "technically correct" but irrelevant in practice idea I presented?

 

I guess it depends.  Having never attempted to bed Carbotechs, I don't know.  Maybe it does if the $20-25 per axle make the bedding process quicker (less time wasted on track) and more reliable.  A fellow racer did lament wasting part of a session on bedding.  I'll get the pre-bedding and try these.  If I like them, next set I won't pre-bed and see what happens.  

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

If this is your first time running Carbotech I would recommend starting with the 10s in front and the 8s on the rear. This way if you get cought in the rain you will have some good modulation and not to aggressive like the 12 and 10 combo.

I like the 10 and 8 combo In the dry and 8 and 6s in the rain. I consider myself a late braker and never had a issue with flat spotting a set of tires with those combos. Now with the 12 and 10 combo you will need some practice so you don't flat spot tires.

Plus I like the Carbotechs over most of the other brands they just seem to be a little more rotor friendly.

For what it's worth
Just my opinion !

[Johnny D]

So from what was said and what I thought, we have the following, correct me if I'm off.

You need to bed or cure your new pads.

 

You need to bed your rotor, (really) if you are changing from the current MFG/compound.

Not so much if you're just changing pads of the same compound.

 

If your switching MFG/or compounds you should turn your rotors (if possible) to get the old compound off.

If you have new rotors you're in the same boat as ^

If you don't turn your rotors it may take time for your brakes to work at their peak performance

 

If you're just changing pads, same compound, you should be able to do this on the warm up lap.

With new/turned rotors it may be more difficult but possible, maybe you should of in an earlier session.

J~

[Jamz14]

A man brought a very limp dog into the veterinary clinic. As he laid the dog on the table, the doctor pulled out his stethoscope, placing the receptor on the dog's chest.  After a moment or two, the vet shook his head sadly and said, "I'm sorry, but your dog has passed away." "What?" screamed the man.  "How can you tell? You haven't done any testing on him or anything. I want another opinion!"  With that, the vet turned and left the room. In a few moments, he returned with a Labrador retriever. The Retriever went right to work, sniffing and prodding, checking the poor dead dog out thoroughly. After a considerable amount of sniffing, the Retriever sadly shook his head and said, "Bark". 

The veterinarian then took the Labrador out and returned in a few moments with a cat, which also checked out the poor dog on the table. As had his predecessors, the cat sadly shook his head and said, "Meow." He then jumped off the table and ran out of the room.  The veterinarian handed the man a bill for $600. The dog's owner went berserk.  "$600! Just to tell me my dog is dead? This is outrageous!"  

The vet shook his head sadly and explained. "If you had taken my word for it, it would have been $50, but with the Lab work and the cat scan......

[robertcope]

Do you find it worth the $25.00 to de-gas your pads that you will ultimately still need to bed to the rotor now?

 

If replacing the rotors, it might not be worth it; personally, I had trouble getting the bedding correct, ended up with lots of buildup and crappy brakes, and moving to the pre-bedded pads fixed that. If you're NOT replacing the rotors, then you can throw the new, pre-bedded pads on and go racing. Is that worth $25? Obviously, that's a personal call. To me it is.

 

robert

[Brandon]

Brandon, this doesn't make sense. If the bedding is to apply a final cure to the backing plate, then whether you are moving between compounds or even using the same compound, per your logic of curing the backplate bonding, the bedding process would still have to be conducted.

 

And why wouldn't the manufactures just cure the backplate bonding before selling?

 

I believe in bedding processes too. However for different reasons than posted here. I also don't believe that exact compliance with the bedding procedure is needed. Do you know how hard it is to follow exactly the bedding procedures on public roads? I seriously doubt anyone can keep the procedure within 20% of the recommendation unless the recommendation is purposely defined fairly wide. If defined wide enough to account for 20% variance in how it is done, then I suggest that the exact procedure isn't that critical. 

 

Please reread what I wrote - I said the MATERIAL on the backing plate needed the heat/bedding process not the plate itself.

 

Alberto did what was needed and called them directly...

[Brandon]

Summary answer for everyone:

Carbotechs work best (greatest longevity) with pad material transferred to the rotor in addition to attaining a high-temp state to off-gas the remaining chemicals/compounds that are part of the manufacturing process (my guess).

 

Failure to do at least the material transfer before running a race will shorten your pad life and/or reduce braking performance.

 

If you run CT brakes, you can purchase "pre-bedded" pads and save on using a session to off-gas the pads should you swap during the race weekend.

As Danny & Kuch says, test, test, test and you'll figure out what pads and process work best for you.

 

In swapping pad brands, depending upon the manufacturer, you may not have to do anything to the rotors.  I believe Hawks are formulated and aggressive enough (regardless of pad model) to not requiring removing an earlier compound transfer layer (so I've heard - never ran Hawks). 

 

Regarding turning, when it comes to rotors for a Miata I feel there is zero benefit to turning and it takes more time than it does to buy new ones.  And if you do change compounds, it should only require a scrubbing/wash with a ScotchBrite pad & brake cleaner to remove the transfer layer.

[Jamz14]

Please reread what I wrote - I said the MATERIAL on the backing plate needed the heat/bedding process not the plate itself.

 

Alberto did what was needed and called them directly...

Huge difference between offgassing and curing. When talking about the pads, it is confusing when you mention the backing plate. What does the backing plate and curing have to do with material off gassing? And how does the material off gas except at the surface? There is no off gassing happening at the backing plate. At the very least you expressed your point in a clunky way that invited misinterpretation. Why not just say that the pads need to heat, off gas and cure?

 

Turning rotors does have a benefit in SM!. BTW- I don't turn my rotors. The benefit is removing as much rotational mass and unsprung weight as possible from the rotors. I don't do it because I just wear down the rotor as far as possible and don't care about every exacting advantage I can wring out of the car. I don't turn my rotors because I have always bedded my pads and used much more rotor friendly Carbotech pads. I change the pads before they start cutting the rotors. If I take care of my rotors in the beginning, I don't really ever end up at the point where they are a mess when they are close to replacing.

[Jamz14]

And BTW, I HAVE used the hawks. Nice pads. They bite very very well. They also worked over the rotors good. If money and time is not an object, people will probably like the confidence the Hawk pads give. For me, being a newbie driver, I liked the modulation and softness characteristics of the Carbotechs. I also FEEL like SM doesn't require hard biting braking. It requires more finesse. I am beginning to learn first hand what I coached my son on. The really really fast guys cars never really seem to slow down violently. All the fast cars seem to magically slow without it being seen in the cars attitude. For a club foot like mine, that is best accomplished with a pad that supports that instead of fighting a pad that wants to grab the car.

[Tom Hampton]

And BTW, I HAVE used the hawks. Nice pads. They bite very very well. They also worked over the rotors good. If money and time is not an object, people will probably like the confidence the Hawk pads give. For me, being a newbie driver, I liked the modulation and softness characteristics of the Carbotechs. I also FEEL like SM doesn't require hard biting braking. It requires more finesse. I am beginning to learn first hand what I coached my son on. The really really fast guys cars never really seem to slow down violently. All the fast cars seem to magically slow without it being seen in the cars attitude. For a club foot like mine, that is best accomplished with a pad that supports that instead of fighting a pad that wants to grab the car.

 

Which Hawks did you try?  I just switched from PFC97's to the DTC-60/30 combo.  I've driven exclusively on the '97s for the last 4 years, and only switched because they went end-of-life.  I haven't used carbotechs, but I would use the same language to describe both the PFC97 and the DTC-60/30 pads.  The DFC-60/30 seems to be just as easy on rotors as the PFC97s were.  Honestly, I found it difficult to tell the difference between the 60/30's and the 97s.   

[Brandon]

Huge difference between offgassing and curing. When talking about the pads, it is confusing when you mention the backing plate. What does the backing plate and curing have to do with material off gassing? And how does the material off gas except at the surface? There is no off gassing happening at the backing plate. At the very least you expressed your point in a clunky way that invited misinterpretation. Why not just say that the pads need to heat, off gas and cure?

 

Turning rotors does have a benefit in SM!. BTW- I don't turn my rotors. The benefit is removing as much rotational mass and unsprung weight as possible from the rotors. I don't do it because I just wear down the rotor as far as possible and don't care about every exacting advantage I can wring out of the car. I don't turn my rotors because I have always bedded my pads and used much more rotor friendly Carbotech pads. I change the pads before they start cutting the rotors. If I take care of my rotors in the beginning, I don't really ever end up at the point where they are a mess when they are close to replacing.

 

I was merely attempting to make a distinction between the AX/XP/RP material...clunky or whatever, you're reading entirely too much into a poorly phrased statement from my perspective...

 

Again, regarding the rotors you're reading much more into it than what I was stating: turning rotors to go between pad manufacturers/compounds IMO is entirely a waste of time and money.  Using a scratch pad & brake clean will allow any other pad that requires a transfer layer to lay down that layer during the bedding process.

 

Any other reasons to turn rotors is outside the brake pad/rotor discussion the OP was asking about.

[Jamz14]

I used the DTC. Can't remember which one. It has been about 4 years since I tried them. My experience with them was in bedding in the pad after replacing for my son. And then driving the car on the street after the bedding. So maybe the track gave a better feel to them than I was able to discern on the street. But they sure did bite good!

[Jamz14]

Brandon,

 

Again maybe the fault of clunky language but when you say ZERO benefit, I read that explicitly to mean ZERO benefit.

 

The conversation has drifted from what the original OP was asking about. The original question if I recall was answered by Danny and I. Both had the same opinion roughly that bedding, regardless of prebedded pads or not prebedded pads is less finicky and crucial than what Alberto feared. That he would be just fine bedding in his pads on the out lap. I furthered commented on that besides the techniques in bedding them in on the out lap, pay attention to how you cool them. It then drifted into a conversation of value which you jumped into with both feet with comments about backing plates and curing that didn't turn out to be supported by Carbotech.

[Jamz14]

Brandon, I stand corrected. The original post by Alberto only asked where he can procure them. So yes I drifted from that. I would be curious how off gassing, backing plates, and curing relate to Albertos question of where to buy.

[Tom Hampton]

WHAAT?!?!?  A converstation on MR.com drifted away from the OP?  I am SHOCKED to hear such a thing!

 

Next up, brake parity.

[Brandon]

Brandon, I stand corrected. The original post by Alberto only asked where he can procure them. So yes I drifted from that. I would be curious how off gassing, backing plates, and curing relate to Albertos question of where to buy.

 

[Bench Racer]

Sometimes we don't know enough to know what we don't know.

[Johnny D]

Funny how others may know what you don't know though.

J~