96 replies to this topic

[pmillion]

I agree

[Bench Racer]

Don't know the answer so will ask a question. 2015 NASA Western Championship race complete, no work on cars, drive directly to impound, some number of cars on the dyno, power looks ok, drivers make decision and everyone goes home. Was this the extent of tech for Spec Miata?

[john mueller]

Don't know the answer so will ask a question. 2015 NASA Western Championship race complete, no work on cars, drive directly to impound, some number of cars on the dyno, power looks ok, drivers make decision and everyone goes home. Was this the extent of tech for Spec Miata?

 

No.  Seems that way but it's not.  I'll have a replay tomorrow.

[Rob Burgoon]

There was no performance advantage for any at Homestead, but they were in violation of the rule. They were 1-2 or close, definitely on the podium( one was one of mine even) It is not the job of tech steward to determine intent,  just measure and report. If over.. your out.  Many cheat intentionally that gives them no benefit, some make the cars even worse.. That is not for tech to determine.. Certainly not for tech to ignore.. But  then again, if you don't even look.. Hard to find anything?

 

I agree that the tech steward should just apply the rules and not try to figure out intent.

 

However, in an "ends justify the means" sense, what was really gained by tearing down and DQ'ing those cars at Homestead?  Was a overdog car stopped?  If not, one could make the argument that all you did was create a bunch of work and cost for a bunch of people solely for warm fuzzies.

 

It's also entirely possible that if a bunch of big names from the runoffs or june sprints showed up at nasa champs that tech would toughen up as well.  What was it, 35 or so entries for this one?

[Ron Alan]

Bench...here is what was looked at from memory.

Before the main race in the other 3 sessions...

Cars weighed
Fuel
Subframe braces for weight
Restrictors
Track width....though they didn't have the correct tool so this was abandoned
Dynoed
Diff ratio


Main race...

Weighed and dynoed. Discussion with top 4 and dyno numbers...done!

[Duane Polsley]

I agree that the tech steward should just apply the rules and not try to figure out intent.

 

However, in an "ends justify the means" sense, what was really gained by tearing down and DQ'ing those cars at Homestead?  Was a overdog car stopped?  If not, one could make the argument that all you did was create a bunch of work and cost for a bunch of people solely for warm fuzzies.

 

It's also entirely possible that if a bunch of big names from the runoffs or june sprints showed up at nasa champs that tech would toughen up as well.  What was it, 35 or so entries for this one?

Rob, what should they tech in your world? 

[Ron Alan]

I also heard but can't verify they did have a whistler there. But they didn't have a compressor so it wasn't used. This was said by some official in tech to a driver and repeated to me

[Jim Drago]

I agree that the tech steward should just apply the rules and not try to figure out intent.

 

However, in an "ends justify the means" sense, what was really gained by tearing down and DQ'ing those cars at Homestead?  Was a overdog car stopped?  If not, one could make the argument that all you did was create a bunch of work and cost for a bunch of people solely for warm fuzzies.

 

It's also entirely possible that if a bunch of big names from the runoffs or june sprints showed up at nasa champs that tech would toughen up as well.  What was it, 35 or so entries for this one?

 

We disagree on every level here ..  The rules are the rules.. If you break them you should be penalized.  You can't even find these infractions without looking... Burying your head in the sand or a dyno for that mater is not tech and is not the answer. The stewarts could have imposed "no penalty" or a minimal penalty, but they didnt as they must have felt there was something there. I disagree, but that is not my call. We chose to be close to the edge, they measured us over, we paid the price as it should be. No complaints on my end. 

 

Not sure what the "big names" have to do with anything? In all reality most of "the big names " have all been inspected already and likely have no issues.  Tech should be the same regardless of who is running.  Not doing tech was simply a disservice, there are no two ways about it. Hopefully NASA will make changes in the east coast championship and not because some of teh big names are going, but because it is what they should be doing. 

 

What I like about the Runoffs is there is no ifs and buts.. If you go to the Runoffs and you run at the front, you know you will be coming apart. 

[john mueller]

I also heard but can't verify they did have a whistler there. But they didn't have a compressor so it wasn't used. This was said by some official in tech to a driver and repeated to me

 

I had a compressor in my truck.  Whistler was NOT needed.  Dyno data and lap times did not support it's need.

[Rob Burgoon]

 

Rob, what should they tech in your world? 

 

Depends on how top heavy the field is.  With who showed up at this one, I'd do the following to the top 5 or so:

 

flywheel/clutch inspection through starter hole

plate

weight

rear gear ratio

shock dyno a shock

dyno and the reverse dyno drag thing

whistle

check control arms for length

check subframe for widening

check bushings are rubber

fuel test

maybe more non-invasive things

maybe more invasive things if dyno looks bad or people are complaining about somone strong on the straights

 

Maybe pick a random car from top 5 and one from the whole field for head removal.

 

Maybe do a blind ballot before the race for whether to tear down the top 5, only count the votes of the top half of the field.

 

If the field is nuts and people are flying in from back east, then I'd ramp up to "off with their heads".

[Jim Drago]

Rob

Why does it matter who shows up if it is a championship race it should be treated that way, regardless of who attends.

 

 

Not sure how dyno numbers have anything to do with compression?  We can run a stock untouched engine less deck way over and get the same results as full legal engine.. Dyno knows no difference.. Which leads me to what I said before of just running a dyno SM class if that is what they want. 

[Rob Burgoon]

We disagree on every level here ..  The rules are the rules.. If you break them you should be penalized.  You can't even find these infractions without looking... Burying your head in the sand or a dyno for that mater is not tech and is not the answer. The stewarts could have imposed "no penalty" or a minimal penalty, but they didnt as they must have felt there was something there. I disagree, but that is not my call. We chose to be close to the edge, they measured us over, we paid the price as it should be. No complaints on my end. 

 

Not sure what the "big names" have to do with anything? In all reality most of "the big names " have all been inspected already and likely have no issues.  Tech should be the same regardless of who is running.  Not doing tech was simply a disservice, there are no two ways about it. Hopefully NASA will make changes in the east coast championship and not because some of teh big names are going, but because it is what they should be doing. 

 

What I like about the Runoffs is there is no ifs and buts.. If you go to the Runoffs and you run at the front, you know you will be coming apart. 

 

 

You miss my point.  In what way was that race *in particular* made better by the teardown?

 

Tearing down engines is good for everyone but the people being torn down.

 

I don't think the NASA west event is "intensely attended" enough to warrant lots of teardowns unless the race or dyno looked funny.  And I trust NASA officials to make that call.  For now.

[Ron Alan]

I had a compressor in my truck.  Whistler was NOT needed.  Dyno data did not support it's need.

Had a junkyard motor in a 1.6 car that made pretty good power. In fact good enough to seal but just a little shy on what some really good 1.6 motors can make. Owner decided to rebuild. Whistled motor before it came apart...10.1! At some point in its life the head had been cut short and ported...130k on the motor. Never know what you get at pic-n-pull! My point? Over legal compression and porting can make an old motor make normal SM power...but a dyno doesn't show this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rob Burgoon]

Rob

Why does it matter who shows up if it is a championship race it should be treated that way, regardless of who attends.

 

 

Not sure how dyno numbers have anything to do with compression?  We can run a stock untouched engine less deck way over and get the same results as full legal engine.. Dyno knows no difference.. Which leads me to what I said before of just running a dyno SM class if that is what they want. 

 

 

If you screw with an engine or ecu, the dyno curve will often look different.  It might be high, it might be funny shaped, it gives clues.

 

Compression is simply something non-intrusive to test.  along with bore and stroke.  But you know all this.  You're just disappointed you didn't get free info without having to pay for it.

[Jim Drago]

You miss my point.  In what way was that race *in particular* made better by the teardown?

 

Tearing down cars is good for everyone but the people being torn down.

 

I don't think the NASA west event is "intensely attended" enough to warrant lots of teardowns unless the race or dyno looked funny.  And I trust NASA officials to make that call.  For now.

It was made better in that no non compliant car that was teched finished ahead of a compliant one. It also made the event better in that all in the field felt confident the rules were being enforced. 

[Duane Polsley]

[Rob Burgoon]

To elaborate further, if I was in charge of NASA tech at champs west, I would do whatever I thought would ensure the best turnout for next year and let that guide me.

 

Now whether the "best turnout" means total number of cars or total number of "crazy fast" people is up for debate.  I'd have to ask Ryan what he wants on that one.

[Jim Drago]

If you screw with an engine, the dyno curve will often look different.  It might be high, it might be funny shaped, it gives clues.

 

 

Not in the small range we are talking

[Ron Alan]

If you screw with an engine, the dyno curve will often look different.  It might be high, it might be funny shaped, it gives clues.

That is funny...cant imagine anyone was looking at curves...just the printed numbers.

Also curious for anyone with many hours working a dyno...what things can be done wrong in putting a Car on the dyno that can make a difference? Also every year car has a sweet spot for power with regards to temperature. Was anything done to make sure pulls were in a specific operating temperature range?

Dyno's can be gamed...plan and simple!

[38bfast]

With a flick of a well concealed in car switching mechanism the Dyno results would show, no need to look at this motor, all is good, one hell of a driver.

Post race Dyno inspection are insulting to the racing fraternity. They can so easily be defeated.,