96 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Not in the small range we are talking

 

Everyone knows you can cheat a dyno.  But if some goof is making a bunch of power and doesn't know it, it'll get him for nominal cost and trouble.

 

NASA had what they felt was an appropriate level of tech to win more business next year.  Nobody going into the race knew if heads were coming off.

 

Ya'll can complain from your armchairs, but if you're serious about getting a group together to come west in 2016, get a small petition going and I bet NASA will accommodate requests for tougher tech.

 

Otherwise, back to your HOA wit'cha, ya graybeards.

[Rob Burgoon]

I agree

 

Yes, I too agree things have pros and cons.

[Jim Drago]

 

NASA had what they felt was an appropriate level of tech to win more business next year.  Nobody going into the race knew if heads were coming off.

 

Ya'll can complain from your armchairs, but if you're serious about getting a group together to come west in 2016, get a small petition going and I bet NASA will accommodate requests for tougher tech.

 

Otherwise, back to your HOA wit'cha, ya graybeards.

 

It's a forum.. that's all everyone does here.. complain from there armchairs

[Todd Green]

Typically you cannot touch the car ( including temps and pressure ) after qualifying and races without asking and granting of permission to do so.

 

The actual rules:

 

17.1 Impound

If it is necessary to stop in the pitlane after the checkered flag, no adjustments to the vehicle are allowed. Taking tire temperatures is permitted.

[Johnny D]

Did NASA/drivers consider Matt would have Humpty Dumpty Syndrome since he drove to the track?

(he ended on the podium correct?)

 

No results on Race-Monitor for Sunday. Anybody have the results?

J~

[Rob Burgoon]

Did NASA/drivers consider Matt would have Humpty Dumpty Syndrome since he drove to the track?

(he ended on the podium correct?)

 

No results on Race-Monitor for Sunday. Anybody have the results?

J~

 

http://timingscoring...ce Official.pdf

[Johnny D]

I understand the SCCA (basically) guys point / point of view.

 

You guys saw the results? 9 in the 46's, 7 in the 47's

Just saying.

J~

[john mueller]

I understand the SCCA (basically) guys point / point of view.

 

You guys saw the results? 9 in the 46's, 7 in the 47's

Just saying.

J~

 

YAY.  Johnny get's it...  Wasn't dyno in a vacuum !!

[Jim Drago]

I understand the SCCA (basically) guys point / point of view.
 
You guys saw the results? 9 in the 46's, 7 in the 47's
Just saying.
J~

YAY.  Johnny get's it...  Wasn't dyno in a vacuum !!

Ok, this is seriously not ball busting... serouious question and I think most likely just a totally different philosphy on this stuff..

So are you guys saying that since the lap times were similar and no one apparently out of bounds in dyno comparisons that is good enough, no reason to check any further?

[38bfast]

I don't believe compression gate, or STR gate, or relief cut gate would have ever been identified on track or on the Dyno.

Maybe NASA has it right or maybe not. If it shows no gains does it matter? Old tired cheated motor vs new expensive legal motor with the same power.

I can see both sides of the argument.

The downfall is the accuracy of the Dyno testing. In this class a engine that is down 4/4 would be considered undesirable.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Ralph your very generous I think that number is like 2/2

[davew]

the tech plan for an event should be made out in advance. That is how it is done by SCCA. First place gets 5 items inspected, 2nd place gets 3 of the five plus something else.  etc. I agree with Drago, the winners where cheated, by not proving they where legal.

 

Let's look at the biggest fiasco in SM history, STR-gate. All the drivers involved had similar lap times, all had similar horsepower (assumed), because all had the same non compliant parts. How would NASA have ever caught them with the system used last week. Driver a to driver b; "I am ok if you're ok. And we can take all the  glory and contingencies and run our cheater stuff again next week"

 

Just my opinion

dave

[wheel]

From the stand point of parity, I would have loved to see the top cars inspected to see if they all had (at least) compliant heads and compression.  This would have given us some valuable information, since a 1.6 did well.  I don't think we can look at the results as a measure of parity if we haven't confirmed them to be compliant.

[Jamz14]

The actual rules:

That might be the actual rule but it isn't the practical rule. I always ask just to be sure. I have been warned before for taking temps and now I ask at every grid if it is ok unless it is addressed in the drivers meeting, which it was for the champs. It is also a rule that you can pass on the checker flag to get into the pits to accurately check temps. That was modified to not include Sunday for the champs. They didn't want any passing after checkers. ETC ETC.

 

Point being that the rules are a baseline, and supplementals and drivers meetings often provide more specific guidance that can and do go contrary to the actual rules sometimes.  Not saying I am a fan of different rules for different events, but it is what it is and has been this way since karting. Not a problem for me as long as I understand the deviations and they are made clear to all competitors.

[Ron Alan]

NASA Pro....registration

 

SCCA con....registration

 

NASA Pro...grid(self griding)

 

SCCA Con...grid(8-10 "volunteers" looking at sheets while some old dude yells at you for parking crooked and someone else is going through your car looking for gloves, knocks your glasses on the side of your seat where you cant find them!)

 

SCCA Pro...double yellow to safely rescue cars

 

NASA Con...hot tows(complete recipe for disaster and a death someday!) When you are fighting for inches in SM...those who really use caution for a incident or safety truck are screwed. The difference in a podium can be catching a flatbed(head remover)on a straight or a blind exit. Enduance races is one thing...sprint races is just completely unsafe because you are assuning EVERYONE is aware and going to do the same thing 

[davew]

I don't do NASA, but around here, everybody does hot tows. Especially SCCA at Road America, those guys are the best.

 

NASA, con... multiple start groups, not just split starts, but rolling starts and standing starts at the same time. Right Danny???!!!

 

dave

[john mueller]

 

NASA Con...hot tows(complete recipe for disaster and a death someday!) When you are fighting for inches in SM...those who really use caution for a incident or safety truck are screwed. The difference in a podium can be catching a flatbed(head remover)on a straight or a blind exit. Enduance races is one thing...sprint races is just completely unsafe because you are assuning EVERYONE is aware and going to do the same thing 

 

100000% agree.   I even hate these in endurance races.  

[FTodaro]

I am way more involved with SCCA so my opinions are not unbiased.

 

However, i have to give NASA two points because they seam to be more able to adapt and change than the SCCA. The analogy would be the SCCA is a bus NASA is a car. 

 

NASA has addressed one of the biggest  road blocks to people attending the runoff type events, that is travel/ and time.  NASA does it by east coast west coast. SCCA does it by recently rotating the events but that really does not eliminate travel for everyone, it just changes it from year to year.

 

The second big complaint is the amount of time that has to be committed to a runoff. NASA is much more consolidated.

 

Personally, the biggest road block for me doing the runoffs this year is the time i would have to take off to participate.

 

It has trickled down to the Majors as well. When you look at the time it takes, it makes it hard to club race.

 

If i do 4 or 5 majors taking off 3 days per race that is your two week vacation,  then another week for the runoffs. that is 3 weeks off of work to qualify and run the runoffs.

 

Ok for guys who work for themselves, not so much for people who don't. .  

[MPR22]

So, at the East Champs if i  am lucky enough to finish in the top 5 and I convince my friends, that we don't want to tear our cars apart 2 weeks before the run-offs I can basically bring whatever I want.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to have to tear a car apart but I am fully prepared to do so to validate our efforts.  

[Chad Martin]

I don't believe compression gate, or STR gate, or relief cut gate would have ever been identified on track or on the Dyno.

 

Just curious.  How many of those were actually brought to light from scheduled tech inspections vs specific competitor protests?   Yes, this is a little bit of a red herring argument...but still...

 

I think everyone here agrees all competitors were free to follow very logical nasa protest procedures...and, none of said protests were denied due process

 

I'm not arguing for no tech and certainly not arguing that Dyno testing will identify cheating in a spec class in any way, shape, or form.  But; dyno, plus protests, plus some well planned invasive tech is a pretty good way to ensure as much compliance as possible.  

 

For better or worse the West Coast folks chose to make it a more laid back weekend.   I certainly don't feel the wrong guy won....but i also think some invasive tech of the podium folks at least is warranted for a championship level event.   Not my call tho...but ALSO not necessarily indicative of NASA as an organization.