1001 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

Chatterbox/Instigator (and I thought my broken record award sucked) along with driver, race winner, Majors winner and donation dude.

[Jason J Ball]

This is stupid that the smac guys don't just have a magic wand and a crystal ball and just already know what the bod will do and exactly down to the .000001 what the effect of any and all changes are and will be till the end of time.

Part of me now just thinks most 1.6 owners are just unhappy no matter what happens. Probably has little to do with what model they own????

 

That's not true Caveman! It's just no one likes to be told they have an ugly baby. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

That's not true Caveman! It's just no one likes to be told they have an ugly baby.

Jball everyone else's baby is ugly but yours

[Tom Scheifler]

There seems to be some confusion on "data".

There's a big difference between data to determine the NEED for a change, versus data determining the EFFECT of a change.

I've been referring to a lack of "NEED" data, but for some reason the conversation keeps going back to "EFFECT" data.

Thank you for trying to clarify. It seems many/most people have agreed the 1.6 "needs a little help". I thought the SMAC had reached that conclusion and was focused on the options (EFFECT of each option). Does the SMAC still question the NEED?

[38bfast]

The beginning of this season I begged, pleaded, prayed for sugstions for the 1.6. The 1.6 community could not provide a unified plan. The SMAC has done a lot of work searching for a solution that we feel addresses the issue. You all will be able to read about it in the next fast rack.

[luvin_the_rings]

After reading this ENTIRE thread over the course of 3 weeks, I have come upon only 1 conclusion...

 

I can't wait to get out on the track and leave some NB's in the dust with our bent up, garage built NA with the wrong ECU in it. 

All this talk of more torque has my mouth salivating.  I just want to get out on the damn track already. I welcome the challenge of driving a car with less torque than the rest of the field.  

Of course, check back again with me in a few years after we've progressed to majors level and see how we feel then.  

 

This is probably one of the most eye-opening introductions to a racing class I have ever had the pleasure of being a part of.  You all have taught me a lot about the SMAC and how it operates.  This should be an appendix in the GCR titled "for reference."

 

The young ones are so impressionable! 

 

-Z

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

After reading this ENTIRE thread over the course of 3 weeks, I have come upon only 1 conclusion...
 
I can't wait to get out on the track and leave some NB's in the dust with our bent up, garage built NA with the wrong ECU in it. 
All this talk of more torque has my mouth salivating.  I just want to get out on the damn track already. I welcome the challenge of driving a car with less torque than the rest of the field.  
Of course, check back again with me in a few years after we've progressed to majors level and see how we feel then.  
 
This is probably one of the most eye-opening introductions to a racing class I have ever had the pleasure of being a part of.  You all have taught me a lot about the SMAC and how it operates.  This should be an appendix in the GCR titled "for reference."
 
The young ones are so impressionable! 
 
-Z

To all the new guys out there,don't let these debates discourage you as this will not affect you until you get to a Mojors level of driving. You all have to remember we are only talking about a few tenths of a lap difference between the cars. So if I where yous I wouldn't worry about all of this and just go out and learn how to drive and just have fun.

I can understand if I was new and just started reading all of this it makes it sound like it's broken but let me assure you it's not. It just needs a little tweeking !

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

That is not what they are trying to accomplish.  You don't diagnose an electrical problem by changing every part on the car all at once (maybe that is how we fix them though) you do it one part at a time.  Eventually you find the answer.

Mr mr2 this is correct but look at how many changes the NB cars have had over the last 3-5 years.

Now please remind me what changes the 1.6 had over the last 4 years other then weight ?

[chris haldeman]

Mr mr2 this is correct but look at how many changes the NB cars have had over the last 3-5 years.

Now please remind me what changes the 1.6 had over the last 4 years other then weight ?

1.6 got smaller plates on the nb cars. We can't really go any smaller so now we are looking too boost the 1.6 alittle.

[Steve Scheifler]

There seems to be some confusion on "data".

There's a big difference between data to determine the NEED for a change, versus data determining the EFFECT of a change.

I've been referring to a lack of "NEED" data, but for some reason the conversation keeps going back to "EFFECT" data.

There is no point in disclosing the proposed rules until the CRB/Board approves and publishes them, because they could change (even be rejected like a recent proposal was). It's a no-win situation: we say the wrong thing we will be crucified, or if we say the right thing we will be crucified.

I've yet to see where anyone twisted anything you said. If we misunderstand, reword or clarify, as you just did and I am about to do.

As for need/effect, my point is that regardless of overall net lap time potential, if it is inherently more difficult to achieve that potential in one car compared to the other then we should at least discuss ways to make them more similar. The "need" in this case is not based on the perfect lap by the perfect driver, it is about most any driver over the course of a full race. If the effect is to give the NAs an overall unfair advantage then it can be offset in other ways. For some reason I still don't comprehend, the mere attempt to discuss it pushed your buttons and all you've done since is disrupt rather than contribute. Disagree all you like, or ignore us completely, but stop giving us a hard time for wanting to kick ideas around in public.

[Tom Scheifler]

To all the new guys out there,don't let these debates discourage you as this will not affect you until you get to a Majors level of driving.

 

I agree this stuff does not apply to most new guys but it can affect you even if you never run a major.  Running regional races this year I was usually battling NBs for position and it can be the difference between a podium or not (and free tires or not).  This is important to (some) people who run only or mostly regional events. Regardless, as Kuch said, don't let these debates discourage you.  With this many participants, there is always someone disagreeing with someone about something.

[Pat Ross]

I think there might be one negative impact that most,if all, have not considered. Right now a newcomer can buy in for $7-10k for a reasonably good NA1.6. Once the NA1.6 is = or better than the NB, all the 1.6 owners will want to get the same price as a NB, at least $15k. So the price for a newby will go up 50%. That might discourage someone who doesn't know whether they will be competitive. $ 5k wouldn't deter us, but it will a lot of younger drivers with small children.

I am now going to put on my fire suit for the next statement. I think a lot of those crying "we want parity" aren't really worried about the SM class, but the value of their own equipment. Mike and I have a NA1.6 so don't say we don't have a dog in the fight, we do.

Pat

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I think there might be one negative impact that most,if all, have not considered. Right now a newcomer can buy in for $7-10k for a reasonably good NA1.6. Once the NA1.6 is = or better than the NB, all the 1.6 owners will want to get the same price as a NB, at least $15k. So the price for a newby will go up 50%. That might discourage someone who doesn't know whether they will be competitive. $ 5k wouldn't deter us, but it will a lot of younger drivers with small children.
I am now going to put on my fire suit for the next statement. I think a lot of those crying "we want parity" aren't really worried about the SM class, but the value of their own equipment. Mike and I have a NA1.6 so don't say we don't have a dog in the fight, we do.
Pat

And do you still race your 1.6 ?

Yes I agree that is nice that they can start up with a 1.6 for cheap and bring more people to sm. I'm all for it But once they get faster they will want a car that they can compete with on the same level. Now like myself I'm stuck to a limited budget and like a new guy I would like to have an option to add money to my car to make it competitive. Instead of having to sell my car for a loss and having to add 10k plus to be competitive. Now adding 2-5k sounds a little better for myself and a new guy.

[38bfast]

Kuch the year car you have is not the issue. Your budget is the issue. Getting a new car is not going to solve that problem.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Kuch the year car you have is not the issue. Your budget is the issue. Getting a new car is not going to solve that problem.

The budget in my car didn't change. I have about 16k in building my car and that's without labor. So the budget is already invested.
I have all the latest greatest things on my car now like bushings,suspension,shocks,brakes,MB trans,strong motor, good setup and the list goes on.The only thing I don't have in the car now is a rear end oh and a good driver !

Is there something else I'm missing ?

[38bfast]

Just thinking what kind of effort I would make if I wanted to win a majors with a 1.6
Fresh car completely restored. Updated with all the latest trends.
Parts matched engine and all of its components.
Full data system. Brake pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, brake pressure sensor, water temperature sensor, water pressure sensor, fuel pressure sensor, air fuel ratio sensor, Air intake temperature sensor, shock pots.
Lots of Dyno time to adjust the air fuel curve.
Lots of track time to readjust the air fuel curve for each track to balance AF for left, right turns and the straights
Car on the scales prior to every event.
New tires for qualifying and new tires for the race or whatever best suits the track. More testing.
STL so I can adjust fuel curve for SM
Study data and video prior to every event
Study data and video during the event.
Study data and video post event. Very in-depth look taking notes for next event.
Diet and exercise

Oh I forgot one. Spend a lest 3 hours a week on the forum demanding the 1.6 needs massive help

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Just thinking what kind of effort I would make if I wanted to win a majors with a 1.6
Fresh car completely restored. Updated with all the latest trends.
Parts matched engine and all of its components.
Full data system. Brake pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, brake pressure sensor, water temperature sensor, water pressure sensor, fuel pressure sensor, air fuel ratio sensor, Air intake temperature sensor, shock pots.
Lots of Dyno time to adjust the air fuel curve.
Lots of track time to readjust the air fuel curve for each track.
Car on the scales prior to every event.
New tires for qualifying and new tires for the race or whatever best suits the track. More testing.
STL so I can adjust fuel curve for SM
Study data and video prior to every event
Study data and video during the event.
Study data and video post event. Very in-depth look taking notes for next event.
Diet and exercise

Damn that sounds like a lot of work ! Stop your making me tired I quiet ! Lol !!!!!

Ps I just got ran over by a train and I didn't even hear the horn or see the light !

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Ralph does a smoke and a pancake count as a good diet and exercise ?

[38bfast]

Ralph does a smoke and a pancake count as a good diet and exercise ?

I think it you might be missing out on a few .1 of a second.

Although if you keep riding your dirt bike it could offset that.

[Tom Scheifler]

Just thinking what kind of effort I would make if I wanted to win a majors with a 1.6

To repeat, parity is not a majors-only issue.
So long as the 1.6 is part of SM, maintaining and improving parity is the right thing to do even if none show up for majors.