1001 replies to this topic

[James York]

A couple of months ago, I subscribed to the idea that the 1.6 needed a small adjustment to improve parity.

 

But after 50 pages of discussions, opinions, some nastiness, and dissection of posts to the point of people arguing about words vs. topic, I have changed my mind.

 

The parity difference is TIME and MONEY spent on each persons SM program.  Equitable rules will never bridge this gap.  I would wager every well attended Major race winner has invested (or shall i say spent, blown) in the top 1% of the SM entrants.  To win, its takes, talent, time and money.

 

So, in my opinion, agreement on parity will never be solved and put to rest until the day the class is run on a single platform, because some are trying to equalize the time and money requirements part of the equation to win.

[38bfast]

To repeat, parity is not a majors-only issue.
So long as the 1.6 is part of SM, maintaining and improving parity is the right thing to do even if none show up for majors.

Tom I 100% agree. But I am wondering who will step up thier game to the majors winning level in a 1.6. The argument that the car is not competitive on a majors level can only be solved if someone steps up to the chalange.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

James everyone's budget is diff. Some guys have to spent 25-30k on a car and some don't. Some guys have to pay for everything they do on a car where a guy that can do it himself doesn't. Do you think any of these top builders have 30k in parts on there cars no they are including there labor and time. And there's nothing wrong with that because it takes a lot of hrs to build and set up a car.

Now if your going to say a car is not a top level car because a guy built it himself and wasn't built by these pro builders your wrong. Now don't get me wrong not all self built cars are at a pro build level but trust me there are plenty of top level home built cars out there. These guys are using the same parts and motors as the pro builders.

I'm not going to mention any names on line and would never bash anyone on here. But I have had a pro motor built from a well known engine builder in the sm com unit and ran it for a couple of years. When it was time I decided to rebuild it myself with all new parts and I mean all new parts,pistons,rods,bearings,valves,springs,pumps ect.... And guess what I got a little more then a 2hp gain.

Now with that being said I have also got into a top level build and prepped 1.6 and still went faster in my home built car with the same setup.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Tom I 100% agree. But I am wondering who will step up thier game to the majors winning level in a 1.6. The argument that the car is not competitive on a majors level can only be solved if someone steps up to the chalange.

Isn't Murdick's car a top level car ?

I know he is building a NB and we will see how he does but I can bet you that he will run the NB for the runoffs and not his 1.6 !

[Scooby]

I am new.  So new that I don't even have a race car yet.  I am looking at SM, Spec E30, Spec E36, and Spec 944.  SM is at the top of my list because of the size of the fields that it generally brings.  I have autoxed, done track days, etc and am ready for something more exciting.  I will build or buy a car in the coming year.  I don't care about being competitive because I don't have the craft to compete and won't for several years.  I will only be a regional racer.  I have no desire to run majors nor the budget.  I just wanna improve and have fun.  My car budget is about $10k if I buy a car and about 15K if I build, just because I can spread that out over a longer period.  Not sure which SM i'd go with, but leaning towards NA6.  Cost and fun factor seems pretty good with the ones i've been in and around.

 

After lurking on this site for awhile, WOW, very interesting personalities on here.  Everyone seems very passionate about their opinions.  I was turned off by a lot of what has been said here and started looking more seriously at the other series I am considering.  I have also realised that most of the negative things have really only been the same several usernames over and over and I am guessing not everyone in the community is as aggressive as some on here.  I still have SM at the top of my list.

 

When it comes to parity, I care and I don't care at the same time.  I don't want a car 15 seconds off the pace.  I need to be the reason I am 15 seconds off the pace.  I also know that whatever I end up with will not get me to the podium no matter how well I drive.  So, yes, I don't want the car to be way off the pace, but also know that it won't be capable of a podium either.

 

Anyways, just a new guys thoughts.

 

I will be going to ARRC this weekend to spectate and I hope I get to meet some of you.  

Joey

[James York]

James everyone's budget is diff. Some guys have to spent 25-30k on a car and some don't. Some guys have to pay for everything they do on a car where a guy that can do it himself doesn't. Do you think any of these top builders have 30k in parts on there cars no they are including there labor and time. And there's nothing wrong with that because it takes a lot of hrs to build and set up a car.

Now if your going to say a car is not a top level car because a guy built it himself and wasn't built by these pro builders your wrong. Now don't get me wrong not all self built cars are at a pro build level but trust me there are plenty of top level home built cars out there. These guys are using the same parts and motors as the pro builders.

I'm not going to mention any names on line and would never bash anyone on here. But I have had a pro motor built from a well known engine builder in the sm com unit and ran it for a couple of years. When it was time I decided to rebuild it myself with all new parts and I mean all new parts,pistons,rods,bearings,valves,springs,pumps ect.... And guess what I got a little more then a 2hp gain.

Now with that being said I have also got into a top level build and prepped 1.6 and still went faster in my home built car with the same setup.

 

My first thought, was "do you think I don't know this?". (except for your motor experience of course)

 

But I will just keep to the intent of my original post.  Your reply to my post is perfect example of around how this discussion has morphed and some create smoke and mirrors.

 

I made a general comment, not writing anything about dollar figures, or how any car is built or prepped (home vs. bought), yet you extrapolate and try to twist my post to try to prove a point you are trying to make that has ZERO to do with what I wrote in an attempt to lessen its value and obscure the message.

 

Whether a car is home built, team built, or bought, what I posted I would wager accurate.  It takes time and money continuously to remain at the top.  Each SM driver/owner can offset the time and money part of equation with their own personal situation (financial or skill), however, the sum needed of both to add to the talent piece is still required to be just as high.

[Bench Racer]

Joey, at the ARRC stop at the OPM operation (dark blue stacker semi parked near T1) of Tom Fowler/owner/driver/businessman. He will have several Spec Miata cars including Danny Stein of the Spec Miata Advisory Committee.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Perfect example of my post around how this discussion has morphed and some create smoke and mirrors.
 
I made a general comment, not writing anything about dollar figures, or how any car is built or prepped (home vs. bought), yet you extrapolate and try to twist my post to try to prove a point you are trying to make that has ZERO to do with what I wrote in an attempt to lessen its value and obscure the message.
 
Whether a car is home built, team built, or bought, what I posted I would wager accurate.  It takes time and money continuously to remain at the top.  Each SM driver/owner can offset the time and money part of equation with their own personal situation (financial or skill), however, the sum needed of both to add to the talent piece is still required to be just as high.

My bad I got it I'm looking to much into it. From now on I will read it a couple of times and let it soak in before I respond.
Remember I hit my head plenty of times racing motorcycles and I'm a little slow upstairs !

[Tom Scheifler]

A couple of months ago, I subscribed to the idea that the 1.6 needed a small adjustment to improve parity.

 

But after 50 pages of discussions, opinions, some nastiness, and dissection of posts to the point of people arguing about words vs. topic, I have changed my mind.

 

The parity difference is TIME and MONEY spent on each persons SM program.  Equitable rules will never bridge this gap.  I would wager every well attended Major race winner has invested (or shall i say spent, blown) in the top 1% of the SM entrants.  To win, its takes, talent, time and money.

 

So, in my opinion, agreement on parity will never be solved and put to rest until the day the class is run on a single platform, because some are trying to equalize the time and money requirements part of the equation to win.

 

If by "solved" you mean "identical", I agree, never gonna happen.  But it should be possible to create even closer parity.  Hopefully the recommended changes will nudge the needle that direction.

 

Also, I agree that time, money and talent are the primary reasons for why someone finishes near the front, in the middle or at the back.

As has been said by others, this parity question is about whether a 1.6 has a fair shot at finishing at the front of the pack that it is already running with regardless of whether that pack is at the overall front, middle or back of the field and regardless of whether that field is at a major or a regional.  It's natural to focus on the majors and it makes sense to use the front pack at majors as the measuring stick of what is possible but the issue is important to anyone that cares about where they finish in whatever race they run.

[Tom Scheifler]

I am new.  So new that I don't even have a race car yet.  I am looking at SM, Spec E30, Spec E36, and Spec 944.  

 

After lurking on this site for awhile, WOW, very interesting personalities on here.  Everyone seems very passionate about their opinions.  I was turned off by a lot of what has been said here and started looking more seriously at the other series I am considering.  I have also realised that most of the negative things have really only been the same several usernames over and over and I am guessing not everyone in the community is as aggressive as some on here.  I still have SM at the top of my list.

 

When it comes to parity, I care and I don't care at the same time.  I don't want a car 15 seconds off the pace.  I need to be the reason I am 15 seconds off the pace.  I also know that whatever I end up with will not get me to the podium no matter how well I drive.  So, yes, I don't want the car to be way off the pace, but also know that it won't be capable of a podium either.

 

Joey

 

Welcome Joey. Don't worry, the 1.6 is not 15 seconds off the pace of an equally prepped 99.  Depending on the track, perhaps a few tenths. Join the fun. Don't let the vocal minority here dissuade you from SM.

[Bruce Wilson]

To clarify, at most tracks 1.6s are not "off the pace" at all.  In fact, they are probably slightly better in pure lap times.  But alas, we DO race for position, and that's where a very slight adjustment is needed.  You think you're seeing a lot of moaning, groaning and chest thumping now??  Wait until one or two 1.6s do well in a race or two, that's when the proverbial falling sky chicken little sh!t will hit the fan   I already have my arguments ready for those conversations!

 

SM rocks the big boy pants compared to those other classes, as is evidenced by a lot posts in this thread!!

[tynor]

 

I will be going to ARRC this weekend to spectate and I hope I get to meet some of you.  

 

 

Take all of this parity bickering with a large grain of salt.    I drive an NB, but I just had my most intense race of my SpecMiata "career" against an NA at the SIC a few weeks ago - we went side by side into turn 1 lap after lap, but he eventually beat me :-).

  

I'm a mid-pack racer.  Back where I race, I can't tell a difference in the model years.   Every difference I see is 100% attributable to talent and setup. SM is where it's at: I made the switch from IT a year or so ago and the difference in competition and intensity of racing is like night and day.

 

I'll be at the ARRC hanging with the Racing Analytics crowd.  Hope to see you there.

[Ron Alan]

A couple of months ago, I subscribed to the idea that the 1.6 needed a small adjustment to improve parity.

 

But after 50 pages of discussions, opinions, some nastiness, and dissection of posts to the point of people arguing about words vs. topic, I have changed my mind.

 

The parity difference is TIME and MONEY spent on each persons SM program.  Equitable rules will never bridge this gap.  I would wager every well attended Major race winner has invested (or shall i say spent, blown) in the top 1% of the SM entrants.  To win, its takes, talent, time and money.

 

So, in my opinion, agreement on parity will never be solved and put to rest until the day the class is run on a single platform, because some are trying to equalize the time and money requirements part of the equation to win.

Kill joy!

 

"TIME and MONEY"...I will respectfully correct this to "TALENT, TIME and MONEY" as the leading order of importance....you write it 2nd in your post but it should be highlighted first...so i corrected it for you

 

And to send home this point...how many people out there who started in a NA car, switched to a NB with visions of immediately going from midpack to the front? And they spent a shit ton of money and time in the process(to remain the same)! Some have moved up...but I would argue it was a function of time not car!

 

BUT...the upward development of the NB car has surpassed the deveopment of the 1.6 car which reached its peak potential before the last "compatition adjustments". And at that time, slowing down the NB cars was the easier and least costly option. But 3 years of development later, what may have been really dam close initially, has every so slightly moved apart again. As Chris pointed out, slowing down the NB cars further doesnt seem to be an option, so rightfully so, SMAC has moved forward on options they feel will improve the 1.6 cars RACE ability. This will quiet the storm for awhile but god forbid a 1.6 drive away at Mid-Ohio...Armageddon!

 

Wait...did I just completely agree with you James? 

[callumhay]

Scooby

I was in a similar situation when I started 3 years ago. I opted for a used 1.6 and have enjoyed the heck out of racing and maintaining it. I have learned a lot about the car and improved as a driver and mechanic.  If I were to do it again, I would have probably bought a used 99 with a view to rebuilding the motor once my skills improved. It is going to cost the same to maintain or repair the car no matter what year. Depending on your skills, you will likely reach a point where you wonder more is it the car or driver that is holding you back. A used 99 is going to go for the high teens and may be beyond budget. In the South East, having the new SM SE class (for 1.6 cars)  may change my opinion on that.  If you race long enough, I think it is natural to want to move up and win and at some point that may be limited by the car. As the class currently stands it would be natural to wonder should I have started with a 99 or a VVT car?. It all depends what you want now and in the future. Entry level, to have fun and learn,  a used 1.6 is the way to go for under 8K. A little more will get you a good used ITA car, which is still going to be fun.  If I were going to build a car, I would build a 99 as the costs involved would be similar and the amount of work is the same and at the end of the day, having a 99 will be a plus if you decide to do more.  

 

As the other Posters have said, SM is where it's at. No question you will have fun with opportunity to find others to chase and push you to be better.

[MPR22]

I am new.  So new that I don't even have a race car yet.  I am looking at SM, Spec E30, Spec E36, and Spec 944.  SM is at the top of my list because of the size of the fields that it generally brings.  I have autoxed, done track days, etc and am ready for something more exciting.  I will build or buy a car in the coming year.  I don't care about being competitive because I don't have the craft to compete and won't for several years.  I will only be a regional racer.  I have no desire to run majors nor the budget.  I just wanna improve and have fun.  My car budget is about $10k if I buy a car and about 15K if I build, just because I can spread that out over a longer period.  Not sure which SM i'd go with, but leaning towards NA6.  Cost and fun factor seems pretty good with the ones i've been in and around.

 

After lurking on this site for awhile, WOW, very interesting personalities on here.  Everyone seems very passionate about their opinions.  I was turned off by a lot of what has been said here and started looking more seriously at the other series I am considering.  I have also realised that most of the negative things have really only been the same several usernames over and over and I am guessing not everyone in the community is as aggressive as some on here.  I still have SM at the top of my list.

 

When it comes to parity, I care and I don't care at the same time.  I don't want a car 15 seconds off the pace.  I need to be the reason I am 15 seconds off the pace.  I also know that whatever I end up with will not get me to the podium no matter how well I drive.  So, yes, I don't want the car to be way off the pace, but also know that it won't be capable of a podium either.

 

Anyways, just a new guys thoughts.

 

I will be going to ARRC this weekend to spectate and I hope I get to meet some of you.  

Joey

If you think they are aggressive on the forum wait until you leave a paper thin gap coming into a hard brake zone and find two of those guys crammed in that small space with you.  Join SM, way more fun and way better talent.  Most of these guys will take you under there wing and give a hand without a thought.  

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

I am new. So new that I don't even have a race car yet. I am looking at SM, Spec E30, Spec E36, and Spec 944. SM is at the top of my list because of the size of the fields that it generally brings. I have autoxed, done track days, etc and am ready for something more exciting. I will build or buy a car in the coming year. I don't care about being competitive because I don't have the craft to compete and won't for several years. I will only be a regional racer. I have no desire to run majors nor the budget. I just wanna improve and have fun. My car budget is about $10k if I buy a car and about 15K if I build, just because I can spread that out over a longer period. Not sure which SM i'd go with, but leaning towards NA6. Cost and fun factor seems pretty good with the ones i've been in and around.

After lurking on this site for awhile, WOW, very interesting personalities on here. Everyone seems very passionate about their opinions. I was turned off by a lot of what has been said here and started looking more seriously at the other series I am considering. I have also realised that most of the negative things have really only been the same several usernames over and over and I am guessing not everyone in the community is as aggressive as some on here. I still have SM at the top of my list.

When it comes to parity, I care and I don't care at the same time. I don't want a car 15 seconds off the pace. I need to be the reason I am 15 seconds off the pace. I also know that whatever I end up with will not get me to the podium no matter how well I drive. So, yes, I don't want the car to be way off the pace, but also know that it won't be capable of a podium either.

Anyways, just a new guys thoughts.

I will be going to ARRC this weekend to spectate and I hope I get to meet some of you.
Joey

Scooby,this is by far the best most fun and most competitive class out there. All these guys are a blast to hang out with on and off the track so go get a car and join the fun you won't be disappointed !

As far as some of the posts on here you have to remember a lot of us have been doing this a long time and know each other and love to bust each other's balls. Yes some guys go a little to far but they are just so passionate about this class and want the best out of it. As far as me and my posts it's all done out of fun and in no way mad or upset with anyone on this site except Ralph that's a hole diff story ! lol !!! Just having a little fun that's all.

Plus anyone in this class is willing to help you out on and off the track until they see you in there mirrors then your on your own !

[Brandon]

The budget in my car didn't change. I have about 16k in building my car and that's without labor. So the budget is already invested.
I have all the latest greatest things on my car now like bushings,suspension,shocks,brakes,MB trans,strong motor, good setup and the list goes on.The only thing I don't have in the car now is a rear end oh and a good driver !

Is there something else I'm missing ?

 

NB front subframe & suspension bits.

 

[Jim Drago]

If by "solved" you mean "identical", I agree, never gonna happen.  But it should be possible to create even closer parity.  Hopefully the recommended changes will nudge the needle that direction.

Achieving "closer' parity is ALWAYS possible even in the hypothetical case where no one was complaining about parity. I think what the post was saying is that these debates will continue as long as we have different platforms and I absolutely agree. If there were a single platform, we can reduce it down to just so and so is cheating
I do believe the parity issue we are addressing now has far more to do with dollars, experience and talent than it does rules, but that's just my opinion and not to say small adjustments aren't needed. I do support some parity adjustments for the 1.6 car, however the changes that you and a few others will feel are "close" will do absolutely nothing to silence most of the others complaining the loudest, not until a 10-15k car is winning at majors, oh wait, that didn't silence them either

[James York]

Achieving "closer' parity is ALWAYS possible even in the hypothetical case where no one was complaining about parity. I think what the post was saying is that these debates will continue as long as we have different platforms and I absolutely agree. If there were a single platform, we can reduce it down to just so and so is cheating
I do believe the parity issue we are addressing now has far more to do with dollars, experience and talent than it does rules, but that's just my opinion and not to say small adjustments aren't needed. I do support some parity adjustments for the 1.6 car, however the changes that you and a few others will feel are "close" will do absolutely nothing to silence most of the others complaining the loudest, not until a 10-15k car is winning at majors, oh wait, that didn't silence them either

 
^^
 
What Jim said.  He summed up exactly my thoughts.

[Tom Scheifler]

Achieving "closer' parity is ALWAYS possible even in the hypothetical case where no one was complaining about parity. I think what the post was saying is that these debates will continue as long as we have different platforms and I absolutely agree. If there were a single platform, we can reduce it down to just so and so is cheating
I do believe the parity issue we are addressing now has far more to do with dollars, experience and talent than it does rules, but that's just my opinion and not to say small adjustments aren't needed. I do support some parity adjustments for the 1.6 car, however the changes that you and a few others will feel are "close" will do absolutely nothing to silence most of the others complaining the loudest, not until a 10-15k car is winning at majors, oh wait, that didn't silence them either

Yes, there will always be people who want more (or less, as the case may be). Like most everything else, try to hit the right balance and move on.