1001 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

I would approximate that 80% of NW 1.6 drivers are running pro motors and all the latest goodies.  I would guess a very large majority of them would make any upgrade to a new rule package.  Back yard Spec Miata builds left us a few years ago.  Ron, would you agree for SFR cars?

Pointy end the last 1.5 years are all running motors...some have also done all the car stuff as well. But no 1.6 cars up front in SCCA. A few still in NASA. Many who are still running their 1.6 have gone the SSM route. Would love to see your crew come down for Sonoma and bring all the 1.6 cars. The latest crowd of young guns would have their eyes opened! We still have a decent turnout but the talent level drops off pretty quick!

[Bench Racer]

Add a little to the $hit storm, would it be safe to say the 99 plus cars torque covers a drivers a$$ (pointy end and other wise drivers) compared to a 1.6 driver when the 99 plus driver makes a mistake?

[Bruce Wilson]

Pointy end the last 1.5 years are all running motors...some have also done all the car stuff as well. But no 1.6 cars up front in SCCA. A few still in NASA. Many who are still running their 1.6 have gone the SSM route. Would love to see your crew come down for Sonoma and bring all the 1.6 cars. The latest crowd of young guns would have their eyes opened! We still have a decent turnout but the talent level drops off pretty quick!

 

Frankly not a lot of fun any more.  We've got a good thing going at our own tracks this year.  Some of our historically biggest fields. Most everyone agreed to put away their 99s and run like the good old days.  Been a blast.  NorCal boys can come up here and run with the best if they want   Drennan threatened to come up and whoop on us, but I guess he prefers running away with all your races 

[Jamz14]

Jamz - You picked the wrong class.  The idea behind "Spec" is that everyone has the same equipment and it comes down to the driver (of course the world isn't idyllic so this never truly happens).  There are tons of other classes that are meant for you to engineer your way around the rule book.

Todd, I don't believe you have understood my point. This is the last I will address it however.

 

Answer these two questions;

 

1. Would a top prep SM car leave an 1 1/2" wire harness ran right in front of the air intake?

2. Does moving the wiring harness a couple of inches for that section to under the air intake violate IIDSYCYC?

 

If you answered yes to both of those then you might understand what I am saying. Being you are regional NASA director, would you DQ me for this? If you say yes, then I would ask that you use your influence as a NASA director to change the rules to allow me this because blocking off a significant amount of the air intake means my car isn't at parity with your 1.6 .

 

Would you also DQ me because my windshield wipers blades aren't in the stock position on the glass? For not having all my gearbox bolts in place? Fastners missing from fender panels? Zip ties used to secure some of the bumper cover points? Relays zip tied instead of the stock mounting bracket?

 

Todd it doesn't matter if you run soap box derby class. If you are top prepped, you go beyond what the rules explicitly tell you can do, and do things that aren't explicity addressed in the rules.

 

But I can appreciate your position and we probably agree more than it appears. But another question for you then. If you want to run equal and the same equipment for the purpose of having all our cars equal in performance in order to have a driver class, do you have any objections to KW's suggestion of a sonic restrictor plate? I am not as smart or knowledgeable about stuff like that as KW, but assuming what he is saying is true, why not support his efforts to get it implemented if you truly want all of your competitors in cars that are performing the same from the engine standpoint?

[Jim Drago]

Add a little to the $hit storm, would it be safe to say the 99 plus cars torque covers a drivers a$$ (pointy end and other wise drivers) compared to a 1.6 driver when the 99 plus driver makes a mistake?

You figured it out! If all the 1.6 guys switched to 99 cars, all of us non driving NB drivers would never win again

[Ron Alan]

Frankly not a lot of fun any more.  We've got a good thing going at our own tracks this year.  Some of our historically biggest fields. Most everyone agreed to put away their 99s and run like the good old days.  Been a blast.  NorCal boys can come up here and run with the best if they want   Drennan threatened to come up and whoop on us, but I guess he prefers running away with all your races 

First off...I will admit we are spoiled in Norcal. Not just 1 but 3 bucket list tracks...no need to travel 

 

Its ironic how the runoffs coming West sparked tons of interest among the top local drivers but at the same time the fun factor went right out the window. I for one miss the out of town competition/rivalry your crew always brought...and this was before i got to know most of you personally! The new kids on the block have no idea what its like to drive in a pack of 10 cars all race!

 

As for Mark...no doubt he is the bench mark for all. No replacement for prep and seat time. Maybe the same reason you are staying up there he is staying here...feathers? Hows that for a little Wilson needling?

 

Ken and Will both have open invitations to come and arrive and drive in a relaxing FUN weekend! The village bike is leaning against the wall!

 

Sorry all...back to 1,6 testing!

[Rob Burgoon]

Todd, I don't believe you have understood my point. This is the last I will address it however.

 

Answer these two questions;

 

1. Would a top prep SM car leave an 1 1/2" wire harness ran right in front of the air intake?

2. Does moving the wiring harness a couple of inches for that section to under the air intake violate IIDSYCYC?

 

If you answered yes to both of those then you might understand what I am saying. Being you are regional NASA director, would you DQ me for this? If you say yes, then I would ask that you use your influence as a NASA director to change the rules to allow me this because blocking off a significant amount of the air intake means my car isn't at parity with your 1.6 .

 

Would you also DQ me because my windshield wipers blades aren't in the stock position on the glass? For not having all my gearbox bolts in place? Fastners missing from fender panels? Zip ties used to secure some of the bumper cover points? Relays zip tied instead of the stock mounting bracket?

 

Todd it doesn't matter if you run soap box derby class. If you are top prepped, you go beyond what the rules explicitly tell you can do, and do things that aren't explicity addressed in the rules.

 

But I can appreciate your position and we probably agree more than it appears. But another question for you then. If you want to run equal and the same equipment for the purpose of having all our cars equal in performance in order to have a driver class, do you have any objections to KW's suggestion of a sonic restrictor plate? I am not as smart or knowledgeable about stuff like that as KW, but assuming what he is saying is true, why not support his efforts to get it implemented if you truly want all of your competitors in cars that are performing the same from the engine standpoint?

 

FWIW, I didn't move my wire harness.  Not legal.

 

I'd argue bolts missing and zip ties are fine since fasteners are free.  But relays zip tied somewhere else are a "move".

[Jamz14]

FWIW, I didn't move my wire harness.  Not legal.

 

I'd argue bolts missing and zip ties are fine since fasteners are free.  But relays zip tied somewhere else are a "move".

Zip tied in the same place just not on the OEM bracket that is missing.

[Jamz14]

FWIW, I didn't move my wire harness.  Not legal.

 

I'd argue bolts missing and zip ties are fine since fasteners are free.  But relays zip tied somewhere else are a "move".

And my cheater windshield wiper location?

[Johnny D]

I understand your point but nobody really cares because it's really a non issue.
I know I'm not going to change your mind but question.

When you get a new brake rotor do you do anything to it before you put it on the hub ?
J~

[Jamz14]

I understand your point but nobody really cares because it's really a non issue.
I know I'm not going to change your mind but question.

When you get a new brake rotor do you do anything to it before you put it on the hub ?
J~

You mean like turn it down to the minimum spec or lower to reduce the rotational weight?

[Johnny D]

Yes, these is one thing that get you to top prep but like a 1000 more things, all legal but makes you car faster, lighter, better, etc, etc.
You don't know, what you don't know?

Try not to get caught up in wirering harness, etc. Last time I herd air goes around stuff like that but whatever.

[Rob Burgoon]

And my cheater windshield wiper location?

Doesn't sound legal to me if it's not in the OEM arc.

[Jamz14]

Doesn't sound legal to me if it's not in the OEM

Can't wait to see how this plays out in October at Buttonwillow. You are now armed with a list of protestable "cheats" on my car. Let the paper fly!!!

[Bench Racer]

You figured it out! If all the 1.6 guys switched to 99 cars, all of us non driving NB drivers would never win again

Not what the sentence said, but screw the sentence around to fit your requirements. If you feel good that means all your huggers will feel good.

 

To the track I go. Oh, a 1.6er spending money on track time.

[Alberto]

I would approximate that 80% of NW 1.6 drivers are running pro motors and all the latest goodies.  I would guess a very large majority of them would make any upgrade to a new rule package.  Back yard Spec Miata builds left us a few years ago.  Ron, would you agree for SFR cars?

 

For Nationals, yeah back yard SM builds left a long time ago.  The Nationals last year had a bunch of SFR racers building NBs and leaving the NA chassis cars.  

 

That said, Roughly half the SFR field this year is SSM (sealed at ~115rwhp).  Regional racing with a 1.6 is alive and well in Northern California.  Woot! 

[john mueller]

 

 

My big question is why was none of this tested on track before deciding not to proceeed with any of it.  In my mind the testing is half way done at best.  We don't race dyno's.  The dyno is a great start, but it needs to be tested on track in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Simple.  $$$$ and time.

 

Plus how many folks wrote in with 1.6 suggestions earlier this year ???   It's was before your time on SMAC Sean, the answer is not many (like less than ten).  So, is there really a problem that needs fixing?

[Todd Green]

Jamz,

 

1) The SM Director has nothing to do with tech/compliance.  It'd be a conflict of interest (if you are running in the class.  Imagine I picked things I knew to be legal on my car to be teched and cherry picked things on other cars I thought to be suspicious (not that I believe anything is illegal on my car mind you).  Or was a real douche and said 1.8's pull their heads,  99+ tear down the tranny, and 1.6's check sway bar diameter.)   The only time I get involved in tech is if a SM competitor comes to me and makes a request.  I'll then relay the person's request to tech, but it is ultimately up to tech to decide what to do.  I view my job as making sure all the SM guys are having a good time, help them to get faster, and listen to any feedback (positive and negative) they have, help with spares/wrenching in a crisis, etc. I also try to make sure they are aware of rules changes etc.

 

2) I never said anything about your wiring and I don't know anything about your model, so I couldn't/wouldn't comment on it.  I do know that people have called 1.6's out for missing the weather strip at the rear of the engine bay.  I'd be cautious about doing anything that affects airflow that isn't specifically allowed by the rules.

 

3) Not an engineer, but I hear good things about sonic/3d/venturi  restrictors versus flat plates, but like anything the devil is in the details and would have to see a concrete proposal.   I don't know if they really equalize the entire area under the curve and would end us having to buy $5K+ "stock" motors.  If they did, I'll be all for it. 

 

Anyway all I'm saying is that you seem to want to out engineer someone as much or even more than out drive them.  Nothing wrong with that and racing will always be man+machine.  (Well for our tenure at least.).  I just don't think a Spec class is as well suited for it as say PT in NASA (and whatever the SCCA equiv is.)  Yes you want to optimize your car, but many of the things you've suggested or questioned are just outright cheating.

[Steve Scheifler]

I believe that the point of the "sonic" single inlet restrictors was to maximize the area under the curve for a given HP limit imposed by the restrictor. In other words, from my memory of how they evolved, first there was a simple rule to equalize power between very different engines with an inlet restriction defined only by its diameter. That allows you to build less radical, longer living, engines and not be at a huge disadvantage to someone willing to replace the valve train every weekend (not unheard of). But racers being racers, they began building better mousetraps. Various Venturi designs were tried, science and math was applied, and eventually the modern sonic restrictor was created. Unfortunately, based on their own test data, it seems to be the opposite of what we need to equalize the 1.6 to all of the 1.8s. I think it would cap peak HP but potentially increase the difference in area under the curve. Might be interesting to test and see, but I don't place much hope in it as a solution.

[Jamz14]

Todd, understood. Looking into moving to PT. Don't want to cheat and rob you guys of your victories against me over my miss placed wiper blades.